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FailiÃ«

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 31, 2005 01:49

Or maybe the reader's don't believe them to be Mary Sues...I mean it is debateable.

I always liked Harry because he had temper tatrums way too much and I like Eowyn because she was so sad...

Rivka

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 31, 2005 08:41

Lord of the Rings can be considered the seminal work in modern fantasy. As such, it's not possible for his characters to be Mary Sues, in my opinion. Eowyn may appear to be a Mary Sue to some people, because she appears to have some similiarities to Mary Sues in fanfiction, but there are two important distinctions:

1) Eowny is the first of her type in modern fantasy; she's an archetypal character, and was created decades before the idea of Mary Sues even existed. Additionally, she doesn't meet many of the requirements of the Mary Sue litmus test anyway -- just because a character is a strong female stepping outside of a traditional role doesn't automatically make her a Mary Sue. Many Mary Sues copy her -- but it doesn't mean that she herself is a Mary Sue.

2) A Mary Sue as originally defined years ago, is an original character inserted into someone else's world, and is usually an idealized version of the author themself. Since Tolkien created the world, she can't be a Mary Sue

And last I checked, he wasn't a woman.

Now, don't get me wrong -- I have read some original novels in which the character had many of the hallmarks of a Mary Sue (two real stinkers that come to mind are Rhapsody by Elizabeth Hayden, and the Spellsinger books by Alan Dean Foster), and because of that, I couldn't bear to finish the books. I think you need to be careful about declaring an original character in an original work as a Mary Sue, though -- the original definition of Mary Sue had to do with wish fulfillment and ludicrous author insertion into fanfiction stories. A lot of people use the term now to define plain old bad writing, which is a mistake, in my opinion. If you don't like the way a book is written, or find the characters unbelievable, that's fine, go ahead and call it poor writing -- but I personally would prefer that people not redefine the term "Mary Sue" to be applicable to completely original works. It's now how it was originally defined, and I don't think it's fair to use in reference to published, professional authors.

Just my two cents

[Edited on 31/5/2005 by Rivka]

"We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 31, 2005 10:43

I agree with Rivka's view that that term 'Mary Sue' should only be applied to fanfiction.

But oddly enough, I do think that Eowyn is a gender switched self portrait of the author. We once had a discussion on this in the Book Discussion forum. Here's the link to it:

http://councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=19181

http://monstersandcritics.wordpress.com/

Twylight_Aelf

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 31, 2005 11:09

owyn and Harry Potter are both very well known Mary-Sue/Gary-Stus and yet these characters are mostly accepted and loved by those who read them. So why is this?

Because they aren't MS/GSes, nor are they ordinary people. They both have realistic enough problems, unique personalities, and aren't all-powerful.

Rivka

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 31, 2005 11:19

Interesting thread, pv. My view on it is this: for almost all authors, their characters embody some aspects or experiences of themself, either real, wished for, or suppressed. At the very least, their characters were created in their psyche, regardless of how much of themselves they put into their characters. So to that extent, you could claim that any book character is a Mary Sue -- which is ridiculous, IMO, and stretches the definition far beyond what it was intended to represent. So while I can buy into the idea that Eowyn represents certain parts of Tolkien's life or experience -- which makes sense, because most authors pull in their own experience or self-image into what they write -- what I can't buy into is the idea that she is a Mary Sue (as explained in my earlier post).

For me, a Mary Sue is fairly easily defined:

1) They're found in fanfiction based on a published author's work.

2) They're usually some sort of person insertion, either of the author herself, or an idealized version of themself -- though they may not realize it. Sometimes the Mary Sue is pulled from our world into the original author's world, and sometimes not.

3) They have characteristics that are frankly ludicrious -- special powers, exceptional beauty, abilities far beyond the norm of what is found in the world created by the original author, interests and activities that don't make sense within the world, and they often fall in love with one of the main characters (or vice versa).

4) They are often poorly written, with little understanding of the world that they are based in. This may well be the single defining characteristic that can save a story from the Mary Sue label.

Not all original characters are a Mary Sue. Many original characters may contain one or two of the hallmarks of a Mary Sue, but if the story is well-written and works hard against making sure that any Mary Sue elements are downplayed, then it's possible to not be tainted with the Mary Sue label, IMO.

The problem as I see it is this: you can only write so many stories about your favorite book/movie/TV Show characters before you start to want to explain a little more about what's happening in their world, and often you need original characters to pull that off. But some people also build up fantasies about the characters and their world, and how they would do things if they were there (I do it myself -- I just don't write them down or publish them), and then make the mistake of thinking that other people might be interested in reading that same fantasy

I'm sure there are some people that enjoy reading Mary Sues, but there's a reason that they're generally reviled -- most mature, well-read readers view them as bad writing, and find them painful to read.

I personally enjoy original characters that can more fully explain the world of the original author, by showing a scene that might have happened in the stories, or a character that might have really occurred if Tolkien had thought of it. The original characters I do NOT like to read about are the ones that are serving only their own author's desires, which is to place themselves (or an idealized version of themselves) into the world of Middle-Earth. This latter type of story is seldom of interest to anyone beyond the author, and because they don't illuminate anything new about Tolkien's world, I personally find them a waste of my time.

For people that like to write them, more power to you, if you enjoy it. Just recognize why a lot of people don't like them. It's a bit like people and their dreams -- you ever have someone sit down and tell you their dreams from last night? No matter how messed up the dream is, in most likelihood hearing about it in detail is nowhere near as interesting to you as the person telling you about it. Mary Sues are pretty much the same way for me -- they're a personal fairy tale or fantasy...they're great fun for amusing yourself if you're the writer, but not many people are going to be interested in your own personal fantasy.

"We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."

AnnÃ»niel

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 31, 2005 01:25

Oi, I knew I shouldn't have posted last night... Far too tired to post my thoughts properly. (Nor did I think that this would get so many replies so quickly...)

What I meant to say was that Éowyn and Harry Potter aren't Mary-Sue/Gary-Stues, but they show characteristics of being MS/GS. Sorry I don't have one thought out for Éowyn, I know Harry's better cause I don't like him much

Consider: Harry was "transported" to a new world: a wizarding world. He has a very dark and very mysterious past in which he was orphaned at a young age and raised by very nasty care-takers. He can do things no other wizard (or average wizard) can do: survive Voldemort's attack and cast a successful Patronus charm (not even Professors know this one!). He just "knows" things that others don't (Oh my scar is burning!). Shall I continue?

The point is that MS isn't just something for fanfic; they can also be found in Roleplaying! And stories. They just aren't very many in stories since I doubt many publishers would publish "perfect" characters. I don't see a MS being a representation of yourself in a story, otherwise Beren and Lúthien would get a lot more grief than anyone else. (Which reminds me, why does Éowyn get a lot more grief than Lúthien?) I think it has more to do with hopelessly tragic characters that somehow are better than the majority of people.

But of course, this implies that *all* heros are MS or MS like, right? Well, naturally they are! The average person would never be able to handle a tragic, life-and-death situation. You need someone better for that, a MS type character, like Éowyn or Harry. Their experiences have better prepared them to face the climax of the story (Éowyn facing the Witch-king and Harry facing the Dark Lord). Random rider number 42 wouldn't stand a chance against the WK. But Éowyn would. This gives her MS characteristics, but she is not a MS herself.

It's a bit like people and their dreams -- you ever have someone sit down and tell you their dreams from last night? No matter how messed up the dream is, in most likelihood hearing about it in detail is nowhere near as interesting to you as the person telling you about it. Mary Sues are pretty much the same way for me -- they're a personal fairy tale or fantasy...they're great fun for amusing yourself if you're the writer, but not many people are going to be interested in your own personal fantasy.

Oh! Very good description Rivka. I'm going to start using this now, thanks so much!

But back to what I originally asked... When does one know that they've graduated in their writings to the point where they can create MS-like characters, without them coming off smelling strongly of MS causing all their readers to hold their noses in disgust? Where does the line run from beautiful Rohirrim princess to Éowyn?

FailiÃ«

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 31, 2005 02:27

Well, Merry was there to help her. I mean he distracted the Witch King...by stabbing him and all. And the prophcey, if I'm correct, said no man could kill him. But Eowyn wasn't a man...

Tariel_Vanari

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 31, 2005 04:28

So, a character must be in a fanfiction in order to be a Mary-Sue? Really? Awesome! Are you sure? I am working on an original fantasy story, and I know my character has many Mary-Sue-ish quialities. But that's ok? Really? YES!

Faramirs_first_kiss

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 31, 2005 11:22

If the writing's good, Tariel (which I'm sure it will be

). If she's amazing at everything but doesn't have a well-developed 3D character she can still be obnoxious

but never technically a Mary-Sue.

Personally, though, I think Mary-Sue's grown to such an archetype in and of herself that she can exist outside of fanfiction, if not in her purest or original form. Salishaya-Canadira "call me Candy" Eslipaparatonovis, golden-eyed, blood red-haired, the orphaned daughter of a Russian spy and a princess brought up in the mountains of Tibet where she learned great things from many masters whom she has now surpassed to become the greatest elemental ninja-mage in the world is still a Mary-Sue, even if she's written in an original universe. Incidentally, I've read Rhapsody and I cringed at the utter perfection of the main character despite the tragic past she had had to overcome. It was the only book I had to read on holiday, though, so I kept reading and it's a good story in itself, but that's besides the point

I said something in the other Mary-Sue thread that I'd like to go back to here:

One insight I've had recently into character development is my first forray into Dungeons and Dragons style tabletop RPing. Because you play with a group, each of whom should be equally matched (although at different things), there are rules about character generation that have to be followed. You have a certain amount of points to distribute between your attributes (strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom and charisma), a certain amount of points to distrubute between your skills (things like your ability to hide, treat injuries and spot approaching enemies), and then a certain amount of feats to choose from a list (these mainly give boosts in battle, though they can enhance other skills). Because of this, if you want to be amazingly wonderful at one thing then chances are you're pretty poor at everything else. If you want to be the same at everything then you're probably only just above average.

The idea of the game is that your character is a hero. Everyone is above average, often at several things, but within the group of heroes they are balanced.

The game we were playing was a Star Wars based game. The company that makes it has just released the game stats for the characters in Episode III. The interesting thing, the point I want to make, is that these characters don't match the rules of what is fair and evenly balanced, they go way beyond it and are given all sorts of abilities they should never have. This is the case with the majority of heros/heroines in fantasy, sci-fi, adventure, and pretty much everything other than a real life setting, and yet we've still read about them because they're well written, they're interesting, they're part of a story that we don't know the outcome of because they're not quite superpowered enough to finish it all in an eyeblink. It's when they're badly written (or in the case of a film, badly acted) and appear two-dimensional, that there is nothing beyond their remarkable abilities, that they become annoying and Sueish.

I think the answer to your question then, Annûniel, is that when the remarkable characteristics are shorn away and you find a person who you wouldn't be surprised to meet in town (whether your local town or, say, Edoras

), at that point the character can be considered safely not Sueish. It is, of course, nearly impossible to judge this point in one's own writing, but if you've gone through a stage where you've written characters with no special powers or distinguishing features relying solely on personality to create plot etc. then you are a lot less likely to produce an unbearable Sueish character if you ever do write one.

FailiÃ«

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 01, 2005 04:49

Whoa.

There's a lot of disucussion on this topic.

If Mary-Sues did exsist out side of fantasy, then a lot of well-written or mostly well-written books would be in trouble. I've been going through characters in my head debating with myself whether or not they're Mary Sues or Gary Stus.

Example:

Harry Potter-(Spoilers from book)

1. Took Mary Sue/Gary Stu Test with related questions for him...

http://missy.reimer.com/library/marysue.html

Ok, so basically according to the test he's a Mary Sue/ Gary Stu figure.

Me: But not to worry, he can't be a Gary Stu!

Meh: But he's unorginal. It's a waste of talent.

Me: But I LIKE the books.

Meh: So? She (JK Rowling) copied off Lord of the Rings, anyway.

Me: Right. And don't you think she'd be sued? Besides, what Gary Stus are are debateable!

Meh: Well, there's unicorns in the story...

Me: Only one book.

And I did that for a couple of hours..

j_mercuryuk

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 01, 2005 06:59

Ms are USUALLY idealised version of the author, not always. GS can be written in fanfiction by authors when they write about thier favourite charater. It's an easy trap to fall into, if the charater is orginal or not.

I don't think that Eowyn is a MS, but I think she shares alot of qualities as a MS and as I've said on another threat this dosen't automatically make them a MS/GS.
I don't think that just having a strong women makes her a MS, I've read plenty of strong women in fanfics who aren't MS, but then some are.

FailiÃ«

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 01, 2005 09:49

Ms are USUALLY idealised version of the author, not always. GS can be written in fanfiction by authors when they write about thier favourite charater. It's an easy trap to fall into, if the charater is orginal or not.

I don't think that Eowyn is a MS, but I think she shares alot of qualities as a MS and as I've said on another threat this dosen't automatically make them a MS/GS.
I don't think that just having a strong women makes her a MS, I've read plenty of strong women in fanfics who aren't MS, but then some are.

Mary Sue discussions sometimes confuse me because they are full of so many people with so many ideals about what a Mary Sue is.

Twylight_Aelf

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 01, 2005 11:13

http://missy.reimer.com/library/marysue.html

I've looked at some of their ideas for a Mary-Sue. Since I'm a writer and have done research on why people often prefer to write about their own gender or culture, I deem this a worthless test. Some of the other questions I considered were:

Would you like to be friends with the character if you met in real life?

I've never heard of anyone wanting to write about a character as a good guy to be dislikeable to themselves. You WANT people to like the character, though you certainly don't want them to be perfect.

Is the character beautiful or roguishly handsome?

This question depends heavily on the character.

Does the character have an accent which you do not share?

Since when do we have to be restricted to one accent? There are other cultures in the world and most of them do have a different accent.

Does the character share your religious beliefs?

I beg to differ. It's an absolute MUST if you are to write a story with any fringement in religion. I consider it an insult when people write about people of another belief other than themselves, because way to often they twist it. Why can't they just write about their own beliefs, or no beliefs at all?

Does the character have a twin, a clone, or a sibling of the same gender?

Oh? So they want the stereotypical "Father, Mother, Son, Daughter" family.

Does the character have a very good singing voice?

You'd want a good trait; and a bad trait. A very good singing voice is possible and not uncommon enough for me to consider MS.

Is the character named after you?

Okay, this definitely has some problems. One, if one name (not yours) fits the character, but the only name that fits well with it is your own (in flow)... then you should use it.

Is the character's name an unusual spelling of a more common name or word?

An unusual spelling for a common name is not a reason to consider it a MS, IMHO. Unless it's something exceptionally wild.

Did you spend more than a day looking for just the right name?

That's actually a very good requirement for creating characters, original or fanfiction.

Does the character have more than one name?

Since they stated that they mean nicknames and such, I think this question is foolish. Most people I know DO have at least one nickname.

Does the character do what you do for fun or profit?

Not a MS-case.

Do you think everyone who reads the story should automatically like the character and want to be friends with the character?

Whenever working on a story one especially cares about, one hopes people like the character and desire that they do. I say this from both what I know personally and what I know from other serious writers. It's not MS.

If someone tells you he/she doesn't like your character, do you take it as a personal attack on you?

Unfortunately, it really does hurt when the character you worked so hard on is rejected when you meant for he/she to be liked. Not a MS issue.

Anyway, I changed some things about that none-MS story I mentioned earlier. She's pregnant, American with Indian ancestry, and is the only surviving member of her family after the tsunami at Bombay. Some other things have changed. Most of the questions are still the same but I'll just show those that have changed.

3) Does she have unusual hair/eye colour?
No, she has dark brown hair, brown eyes.

10) Does one of Tolkien’s characters hopelessly fall in love with her?
No, they're Orcs. She falls in love with another real-worlder who's stuck in M-E. Now one orc does kiss her later in the story at one point according to the outline, but it's like Peresphone and Neo's kiss in Matrix Reloaded.

17) Is she a skilled warrior?
She has no idea how to fight at all. Demands that Gorbag teach her, since she both fears for her unborn child and herself.

23) Does she own any special jewellery given to her by someone important to her?
Yeah, a locket with a picture of her now dead boyfriend.

30) Does she actually know everything?
She knows next to nothing except what she saw in the movies

My sister wants her to fall in love with Gorbag

, so I had to slip in a romance somewhere to save my sanity and keep my sister from pressing the matter. If she was to fall in love with an orc, it would have to be Morhont (which would be awkward, since Morhont does better in orcish brother/sister relationships in my experience) or some random orc. But not Gorbag. He's the one who ends up training her and a romance between him and her, in my mind, would only do damage in that retrospect.

Don't ask me where that orc-kiss came in. I think it was when I was thinking of orc-culture and their way of life. Raising orc-families, breeding, and the like.

[Edited on 1/6/2005 by Twylight_Aelf]

FailiÃ«

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 01, 2005 12:28

Yes, I see some of the things wrong with the quiz, but then again, Harry does fit a lot of the catgories both there and the Mary Sue test on this site.

A human and an orc...*considers*

Ewww...

Twylight_Aelf

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 01, 2005 12:37

A human and an orc...*considers*

Ewww...

Ya, it's pretty... ick. See why I changed it?

[Edited on 5/6/2005 by Twylight_Aelf]

FailiÃ«

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 01, 2005 02:47

I was thinking of Saruman breeding his army. It didn't excatly happen the way it happened in the movies...the books weren't spefic.

It would be intresting to say the least.

Cubeleg

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 02, 2005 07:19

Farmirs_first_kiss, I read your first post on this thread and immediately the ague took me, followed by shakes and a raging fever. Just now I have recovered enough to drag myself to my computer and type this message.

OK, that was melodramatic. Actually, I only lost about an hour of sleep last night thinking about it.

FFK said,"She could handle a sword well enough to stay alive, which is too well for any girl."

Yahoo! Thank you thank you thank you. I don’t feel so bad anymore about knowing nothing about sword fighting. And I agree, no girl would be able to stay alive in a sword fight, unless perhaps she’s fighting another girl, or a crippled dwarf or something of that sort. If I had had years of sword lessons and saw and orc, I would still run and scream for Aragorn. Then he would have to waste valuable time rushing in to save me. Of course, any conveniently placed swordsman would be acceptable help…

But the reason for my lost sleep was simple. I have almost completed a 150 page fan fic, and now you make me suspect a MarySue. I knew about that specimen before I started writing and tried to avoid acquiring it. Hopefully one of two things is true: #1 I am being overly sensitive or #2 I am in the “second” Mary Sue stage, which someone else mentioned, where people like my characters.

Why do I suspect a Mary Sue?

Mainly because she had a noble past. In fact, she is really Prince Imrahil’s daughter. (Those who have watched the movies only…he wasn’t there. Those who love the books, you know he is the Prince of Dol Amroth, one of the provinces in Gondor. Also, his daughter Lothiriel marries Éomer.) Maybe this noble past is far enough away from the canon characters to make it acceptable.

She had no dark memories however. All those occur within the first couple chapters of the book.  She actually grew up quite happily and won’t find out about her lineage till much past the seven chapters I’ve posted so far.

I guess I’m experiencing a lot of uneasiness. My sister and friends like Wanderers From Dol Amroth but the number of hits is climbing very slowly. I wonder if its because the character is Mary Sueish.

What do you think?

P.S. Don’t! Repeat. Don’t tell people that this character is Imrahil’s daughter. That is supposed to be the mystery you have to discover.

j_mercuryuk

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 02, 2005 07:29

If the only reason your worried is because she has a noble past then don't worry. It's a far off enough charater and that on it's own is not enough to make her a MS. So don't worry.

et:

Faramirs_first_kiss

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 03, 2005 12:20

Yes indeed, don't worry. If that's the only characteristic she has that makes her seem Sueish then you should be safe. I've had a quick glance at the fic (sorry, no time to read more

) and it's nicely written. If you're concerned about the number of hits your getting, you could try making your paragraphs longer by combining the shorter paragraphs. Because CoE uses very small font they look short and appearance on the page does effect whether people will read a fic.

Cubeleg

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 04, 2005 03:41

Thanks for the encouragement/advise. I guess the only other Sueish characteristic she has is her ability to use a hunting bow. I gave her the bow in the first place because of Eowyn's quote about women knowing those who could not use a sword could still die by a sword. So she has a hunting bow. But the only time she uses it to fight is when she runs into a band a Dunlanders after the first Attack on the Isen and has to escape. One fellow gets his chest in the way of her horses's path and she shoots him. At Helms Deep, when the orcs are driving the men back into the caves, she lobs a few arrows into their midst, but it doesn't really do anything to help. Now that I really sit and consider, I doubt if I could haul enough poundage to put an arrow into anyone's chest. Ribs are pretty tough and its all too easy for an arrow to bounce off. But maybe since she has tougher housework and rides horses and in general does more physical exercise, she might be able to pull enough poundage to get an arrow into a chest from point blank range.
Those two are the only instances of bow use. The way they're written, I think they fit.

One other question. A lot of my paragraghs look short becasue they're conversations. Do I need to alter that aspect of the story?

And thanks again for the encouragement.

Twylight_Aelf

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 05, 2005 09:37

I was thinking of Saruman breeding his army. It didn't excatly happen the way it happened in the movies...the books weren't spefic.

Actually, Tolkien wrote that they had orc-women and bred like elves and men. In my story, the Mordor-orcs breed the Tolkien-way, but Saruman breeds his orcs differently. His orcs are essentially 'its'

elf_girl_Edhelanna

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 07, 2005 12:02

Ach! You should read MY 150-page Legomance epic! Problem is, because the MS syndrome seems so incredibly pariah on this site, I don't wanna post it, even though I have had good reviews on other sites!

As far as my take goes, I think it's the WRITING that makes something worth reading. Let's face it, SOME Mary-Sues are box-office winners (biggest published example I can think of is Jean Auel's Ayla from the "Earth's Children" series...now THAT girl is the Mount Everest of Mary-sues and nobody picked Jean A to bits over it!) Why? Because she's written it so well! And who says that women can't be beautiful and 'all-powerful'? Heck, my own "sue" is naturally derived from me - and I am a bungy-jumping, snowboarding, jetskiing, longbow-shooting, adrenalin junkie qualified pilot who can write well and draw/sketch/photoshop like a frickin' goddess! SO who's a real life Sue then? You wanna see my artwork, check out the Fan Art section. If ya want me to upload my "sue" epic, send in your requests!:love:

As far as I'm concerned, as long as your "sue" has a great support crew (as in well-written text, good grammar and excellent characterisation) I'll read it! Oh, and lots of Elf-smutting is good, too...*grins*

Morwinyoniel

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 07, 2005 06:47

I still disagree with labeling every female character who in some way breaks the norms of the time and society she lives in as a Mary Sue. There have always been exceptional individuals - in real life as well as in fiction. (Would anybody say that, for example, Marie Curie's career wasn't very exceptional for a woman of her time? Or, how about the female pirates Mary Read and Anne Bonny?)

What makes a character a Mary Sue (or Gary Stu, in case it's a male character) is that, they're unrealistic: unbelievably beautiful, excellent in everything, save the world single-handedly... Having a few Sue-ish characteristics doesn't make a character one, if she's believable.

So, in a Middle-earth story, maybe a female Ranger running around in the wild hunting orcs would be rather Sue-ish; but, if she's not exceptional in any other way, and is written so that she's believable, she's not necessarily a Mary Sue. And, I definitely wouldn't think that a Ranger's wife who knows how to use a hunting bow and will defend her home at need is one.

LinweSingollo

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 07, 2005 07:46

Morwinyoniel , you articulated so well exactly what I was thinking. Bravo!

"To the Hobbits. May they outlast the Sarumans and see spring again in the trees." J.R.R. Tolkien

j_mercuryuk

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 07, 2005 09:30

I agree, put most will only break away so far
I've never read a fic so far, where I've believed that it would happen and haven't cringed.

DaughterofNimrodel

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 14, 2005 10:52

Okay first and foremost, yes I have written a typical Mary Sue and though she had many of the traits, right down to Legomance and going with the Fellowship, I have gotten many many good reviews on it. The thing is I warned people, I said look it's a Mary Sue, I wrote it, I'm not ashamed. If you don't like that don't read it. So if you wrote a Mary Sue so what, the point is you had fun doing it. Really if you're a writer that should be the reason you're writing. If you are afraid your character is an MS just warn people. You'll find the anti-suers leave you alone and sometimes even applaude you for admitting it.
I've also learned that a good way to avoid the dreaded title is by having the leading canon character/love interest one that was a very small role in the story your fiction is based off of. Alot of times an OFC is more exceptable if she pairs off with say Orophin. A character known of but not really known about.
In the end it boils down to this no one can tell you what you should or should not write. An author should write for themselves and not reviews. Writing is an art form and art is subjective not objective. What one person considers trash another will think is the best story they've ever read. So write whatever you want.

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DaughterofNimrodel

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 15, 2005 05:13

Power to you faintingstar! REally people need to step back and look at the whole Mary sue debate. I don't think everybody has to like Mary Sues, I totally respect that we're all aloud our own opinions, but frankly the attitude towards Mary Sue has left the realm of opinion and gone straight into discrimination.

Now I'm not saying anyone on this thread has reached that point, you all have been very civil and open about it regardless of your opinion on these types of story. I'm refering to the broader fiction community. It I think has reached ridiculous proportions. How many young beginning writers have been chased away from the art of storytelling because of this Mary Sue myth? The truth is badly written stories appear in any kind of fanfiction, but for some reason it's only this type that gets treated like the scum of the fanfiction universe.

I would also make it clear that I am in no way trying to fight to get them on this site. It is up to the owners and managment of CoE whether or not to allow them and i respect and understand the reasons against them. As I said before I am refering to the broader fiction community.

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Faramirs_first_kiss

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 15, 2005 11:05

First of all, let me make it absolutely clear that I am not anti-female in any way. I am female myself, and any male who so much as implies that he is better than me because of that is going to find my heel placed where the sun doesn't shine with quite some force. My standpoint is simply this: women in Tolkien were not taught to fight. End of story. In untrained combat, the majority of men have the advantage over the majority of women because of sheer size, weight, and often speed as well: you're going to do more damage with a fist like a club than you are with a fist like a hairless kiwi-fruit. Any woman who does not suffer from the first two of these disadvantages is likely of a rather stocky build, a trait I have yet to see in any Mary-Sue anywhere. Women can be quicker, or at least more agile, so I won't argue that toss, but on the whole any seven-stone Rohirric princess who is hit on the head by a burly fellow who means business is going to fall like a log.

As for trained fighting, I don't know much. Do world-class fencers fight memebers of the opposite sex? Either way, women in Tolkien are less trained in using any weaponry than men. Even those famous shieldmaidens had houses to tend and fields to work and were not, unlike their male relatives, required by law and oath to remain able to fight at any time for king and country.

However, this is Tolkien. There are other fictions (and real historical societies) out there where women are trained just as well as men... Me, myself, personally, if I ended up in Middle-earth and was handed a sword and given a five-minute crash course by none other than Aragorn son of Arathorn himself, I still wouldn't want to try and fight a crippled chicken with it, let alone a crippled dwarf.

But all that aside, I've been trying to work out exactly what it is that makes Mary-Sue annoying. There's a reason everyone thinks that purple eyes and blood red hair are cool and that's because on some level they really are. Maybe we all secretly envy Mary-Sue; in fact, I'm sure that's the case. Who wouldn't want a life where everything was perfect except for some superficial angst? That's not just it, though. The thing that annoys me most of all about Mary-Sue is when she stands there and tells everyone her wonderful idea of exactly how to solve this-that-and-the-other unsolvable problem, while the rest of the characters sit there amazed and praise her wonderous intelligence. The fact that this is often the climactic point of the story and the event that the authour has hung the whole story around makes you wonder why you bothered reading the rest. Essentially the authour has created a problem for her character to solve and given her the perfect solution is what is at fault, a symptom of poor writing rather than Sueism.

The book Rhapsody that Rivka mentioned is a prime example of where this is not the case. The main character is of a fading, beautiful, superior race; she is miraculously talented in an ancient magic of extreme power; she has the gift of manipulation of fire and a magic sword whose blade blazes with starfire; she is immortal. Last thing on this impressive list is that she is beautiful, so beautiful that people crash their carts because they are too busy looking at her, the most beautiful person ever in the world, in fact. Sounds like something a young girl might write on her first forray into writing, but in fact the book is gripping. Even though the character comes out as variously 'the ultimate Mary-Sue', 'Unsalvageable' and 'AARGH! AARGH!! KILL HER NOW!' on Mary-Sue tests, the book is great. She isn't given a problem to solve that she solves, either by herself or with the help of Bambi and her other woodland friends. She's a pawn in a game played by other people and spends the vast majority of the book completely unaware of this.

Mary-Sue by herself is just what the authour intended her to be: really really cool! It's when stories depend upon the fact that she's a Mary-Sue to have any content at all that things start to become obnoxious. It is a great idea to mention if your story is a Mary-Sue in the description: often when people are mature enough to know and warn people of the fact that their character is a Mary-Sue, their writing is good enough that it doesn't matter.To reiterate what was (I think... :dizzy: ) the original point of this post, I didn't at any point intend to woman-bash. The simple point is that Tolkien's women aren't on the whole as physically able to fight as Tolkien's men. This is evidenced by the fact that we see tens of thousands of men fighting, and Éowyn. I think that's relatively conclusive. And even Éowyn hangs up her sword at the end. So yeah, Tolkien's women can't fight. That doesn't mean that all women everywhere are utterly useless at everything, far from it.

Goldsand

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 15, 2005 12:46

Everyone here has some valid points, and this discussion has been civil thus far ... let's please keep it this way and refrain from strong language. There are many ways of expressing one's viewpoint without the use of harsh words - but you all know this already

DaughterofNimrodel

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 15, 2005 04:03

Don't worry Goldsand, I think everyone here is only interested in keeping this a debate. Personally, I understand not wanting to read about the perfect girl with no flaws. I think the reason so many people don't like MS is because perfection is boring. My main beef is that because of this MS debate, many, many OC's are unjustly lumped into this group simply because they have one or two of these traits. Also I see beginning writers coming in here and finding all these no and don't dos. If the character is what you want than that is how you should write her. There is not one single story in existance that is liked by everyone, to try to please everyone will only drive you crazy.

I guess this hits somewhat close to home for me because I deal only in stories involving OC's. Often they do have one or two MS traits. If I always avioded every single MS trait, all my characters would be the same and frankly they would be boring. So again my point in all of this is and I stress this, IGNORE STEREOTYPES AND WRITE WHAT YOU WANT!

[Edited on 16/6/2005 by DaughterofNimrodel]

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Twylight_Aelf

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 15, 2005 05:46

. I think the reason so many people don't like MS is because perfection is boring.

It is also exceedingly unrealistic. People don't want that. They want realistic, not something that's so off the wall (in characterization) that you end up just noticing all the perfect flaws of Sue and getting annoyed instead of just enjoying the ride.

My main beef is that because of this MS debate, many, many OC's are unjustly lumped into this group simply because they have one or two of these traits. Also I see beginning writers coming in here and finding all these no and don't dos. If the character is what you want than that is how you should write her. There is not one single story in existance that is liked by everyone, to try to please everyone will only drive you crazy.

According to the test, it's just when you have six or seven that you are in danger zone. I think that test is perfect because when you think of it, it really does list all the traits of the perfect Mary-Sue. The point of the matter is Mary-Sue's aren't well made.

Since Mary-Sue fics aren't allowed on this site, this stuff should be known before sending fanfics. That's why this thread is a Do and Do Not thread. And if you think it'll ruin beginners: it's the law of the site and they will abide by it.

I guess this hits somewhat close to home for me because I deal only in stories involving OC's. Often they do have one or two MS traits. If I always avioded every single MS trait, all my characters would be the same and frankly they would be boring. So again my point in all of this is and I stress this, IGNORE STEREOTYPES AND WRITE WHAT YOU WANT!

First off, it doesn't matter if your character has a couple of MS traits. That doesn't necessarily make them Sues.

OC doesn't equal MS. Remember that. Both me and my sister have worked on OCs... realistic OCs. All real-worlders (a strong MS trait), but nonetheless real people. Some stories do work better with Sues though, I'll give you that. But really, I think you're jumping at shadows here.

Edit: Let's define Mary-Sue. A Mary-Sue is an unrealistically perfect character plopped into fanfiction. I don't think being an "Amazon" counts unless backed by other MS traits.

For an example for an non-MS OC character, here's the fanfiction I was talking about. She is not a MS (that's been backed-up by this thread and my beta readers), but she does have some traits. She's a real-worlder, main character, will be taught to fight and speak orcish, and does get hurt often (minor wounds normally).

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2417431/1/

[Edited on 6/16/2005 by Twylight_Aelf]

DaughterofNimrodel

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 16, 2005 06:56

[quote
According to the test, it's just when you have six or seven that you are in danger zone. I think that test is perfect because when you think of it, it really does list all the traits of the perfect Mary-Sue. The point of the matter is Mary-Sue's aren't well made.

Since Mary-Sue fics aren't allowed on this site, this stuff should be known before sending fanfics. That's why this thread is a Do and Do Not thread. And if you think it'll ruin beginners: it's the law of the site and they will abide by it.

First off, it doesn't matter if your character has a couple of MS traits. That doesn't necessarily make them Sues.

Edit: Let's define Mary-Sue. A Mary-Sue is an unrealistically perfect character plopped into fanfiction. I don't think being an "Amazon" counts unless backed by other MS traits.

I agree completely with you. The problem is that this can be very confusing for new writers. I really do believe that people should simply write what they want. Writing is supposed to be fun, that should be the reason that you do it. If at the moment a Mary Sue is what you want to write, than no one should tell you that you shouldn't. Besides most people only ever write one MS and then they move on to other things.

I only wrote the one and probably never will write another. Though, I probably will write a few Legomances. Those in themselves are not Mary sues, some will tell you otherwise, lol. Anyway, it's nice to meet another OC author.

[Edited on 17/6/2005 by DaughterofNimrodel]

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AnnÃ»niel

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 16, 2005 09:29

Well, you can write as much MS as you want, but don't expect a lot of people to love it and say you should get the peice published! You're free to write whatever you want! Though you can't put you fanfic on this site, there are many others that allow you to do so.

DaughterofNimrodel

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 16, 2005 03:13

Oh, definatly, and I'm not arguing that on this site at all. That is up to the owner/owners of the site and it's their right. It's just that really the whole attitude in general is kind of silly. I mean no one holds a gun to your head and forces you to read any fanfiction, so really the debate shouldn't be such a big deal. If you don't like MS's don't read it. I don't like slash but I don't think it's bad, and if someone wants to write it fine. People actually do read Mary sues. From everyone I have talked to the approval and disapproval rate for slash is about the same as MS's. There are just as many places that don't allow slash or even crossovers as there are that don't allow MS's but for some reason only MS's are treated like the scum of the fanfiction world. There actually isn't a single type of fanfiction that does not have a group that dislikes it. Yes, there are some terrible Mary Sues, but think about it, that really depends on the skil

l level of the writer than the Mary sue itself. You get horrible stories in any type of fiction.

I just want to clarify, that I am not trying to make anyone admit that Mary sue's are the greatest thing in the world, I just want to point out that they actually do have their place. In fact there are even awards specifically for Mary sues. If there was no market for them than why would there be awards for them? I just don't understand why the opinion of those who do not care for them should be more important than those who do. Really, I don't want anyone here who doesn't like them to change their opinion and I realize that those who have posted here have been very patient and don't seem to be that close minded, I'm talking about the broader community, I just think there needs to be a bit of perspective and emphasis that writing a Mary Sue does not make you a bad writer, or some immature fangirl.

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Morwinyoniel

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RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 19, 2005 09:04

My standpoint is simply this: women in Tolkien were not taught to fight. End of story.

In general, yes. But, there were exceptions, and fully believable ones, mentioned in the stories: Haleth, Emeldir, Éowyn. Who says that, there can't be other such exceptional females who in extraordinary situations do something women usually don't? Being skilled with a weapon, at least to the extent of being able to defend herself in an emergency, doesn't make a female character in a Middle-earth story unbelievable. Unless, of course, she becomes a sharpshooter and a master of sword by training just for a couple of days...

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