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Faramirs_first_kiss
Mearhwine Namsmið
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 05, 2005 02:01
I have read the Sil and I remember those bits you mentioned (if a little vaguely, it was at least a year ago ). I would say that it is always possible for women to step outside the conventional bounds that society places on them, and I would go so far as to say I expect this happens quite commonly on a small scale, say in terms of a village or a tribe. I would say that most of the women who do this on a scale that affects nations or the whole of Middle-earth have been documented by Tolkien in LotR or one of the histories, and that people who attempt to write an extra one, especially around the time of LotR, are often writing Mary-Sues or self-insertions.

An interesting thought about the characters from the Sil, though: would they appear Sueish if someone chose to write their story out in full? This, I suppose, is the real difference, and it's subtle and hard to define. It all comes down, at the end, to writing talent and accurate observation of real people. If the characters could be made to seem realistic and 3D, well-rounded, and with suitable motivation for doing what they do, then no, they would not be Sueish. It's when people who don't know what they're doing lunge right in and have this amazingly strong female swinging her sword and performing random acts of valour with no real reason that these characters become hard to stomach. Even the youngest writer could and should try to make their characters more and more realistic, because if we don't try and improve, how can we hope to do so?

As for MS tests in other fandoms, try this page. At the bottom are links to some specific fandoms, but the main test is relatively non-specific.
pv
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 05, 2005 11:35
Creating a socially conventional character is not the same as creating a realistic character. Realism in writing depends more on the skill of the writer than on the type of character portrayed.
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j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 06, 2005 01:00
i agree with pv. i think a MS isn't realistic, if it's realistic then it's a MS. if it makes you cringe it's a MS. if you want to kill it, it's a MS.
Ireth_Telrunya
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 08, 2005 01:11
Evil Mary Sues appear quite frequently in fan fiction. They are sometimes the daugther of Sauron and vampires are very popular too. Remarkable fact: they are never orcs or Uruk-ais.


Hmmmm..........

That's interesting. I'm writing a LotR fanfic right now, about a young Elf who gets transformed into an Uruk -- but not completely. His undying love for his little sister Elennar keeps him from becoming totally evil, but he still has the outward apprearance of one of Saruman's minions. He only scored 3 on the MS test, also. But I'm beginning to wonder about him. Would an orphaned not-quite-Uruk who joins up with the Fellowship be counted as a Gary-Stu??? (He's not Galadriel's second cousin's grandson once removed or anything.)
Far over the Misty Mountains cold, to dungeons deep and caverns old. We must away ere break of day, to claim our long forgotten gold.
Divinity
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 28, 2005 06:40
I'm soooo ashamed!! I've created such a Mary Sue and I'm endanger of doing it again!! PLease help. Well she's a princess named Lineth daughter of who else but Arwen and Aragorn. Ok well she's being forced to marry and so she leaves with out telling anyone to join up with this group which is going to this volcanic island to save some dwarves and men who have discovered some magic jewels and are about to be in trouble. She knows a little about healing but gets the names of herbs mixed up. Fights ok but doesn't own a sword and won't get one from anyone 'special'. Does she seem really bad?? :feedback:
Nienquia
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 28, 2005 10:10
That sounds like a Sue all right...

But maybe you can fix it. At least you gave her a flaw: she mixes up the names of herbs. Very human, probably a lot of people mix up names of plants. But it can cause a lot of problems. Especially when it involves healing and people's lives may be at stake. So that's a start. At least she's not too perfect.

I think the main thing you should be looking at is her forced marriage. Why is she forced? Why doesn't Lithen want to get married? Why is it such a great problem that apparently, she cannot talk it over with anyone and feels the need to run away? Mary Sues often define themselves because of a lack of proper explanation.

I hope this helps you a little.
nimrodelsong
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: March 20, 2005 02:03
Interesting discussion giong on. I will say more later when I have time as I have to dash off to work. In the mean time I would like to point out that I have written a Mary Sue to rival all Mary Sues...Well what some would consider a Mary Sue anyway. The Mary Sue tag is a difficult one to come to grips with as there are many ideas and misunderstandings as to what it actually is.

Personally, I think the whole MS issue is based on discrimination against female authors/characters etc who dare to write something where 'sacred' male territiory has been invaded... eg 10th walker (which is what I prefer to call my own tale) into Tolkien's world etc....

I have read some great stories out there and Nienquia's tale is fantastic if it is the one I'm thinking of. Can you give me a link and a title please?

They are not really Mary Sues when a writer inserts a character into an already much loved story...Rather it is when the character is completely perfect. The original Mary Sue was a 16 year old, blonde virginal genius who joined the Star Trek team in one of the original episodes and trounced both Spock and Captain Kirk in saving the day! Now that's a Mary Sue!

As editor of the Reading Room at Tolkien Online, I have encouraged Mary Sues to be written as this is how many writers begin and fine tune their craft. Mark Twain as well as our beloved Tolkien have written Mary Sues. No one could argue that they were terrible writers either. I think my point is that you have to start somewhere. My tale is the first I've ever written and I am dreaming up an original story of my own now as a result. The response I received to Aussie and the fact that I showed myself that I could write something that people wanted to read, has taught me a lot about the art of writing and has encouraged me into further ventures. Thus, I have no trouble with Mary Sues. I did try to base my character on myself and have tried desperately to include ALL of my faults as well as my virtues. A bit of fantasy never hurt anyone. Every fan I have ever met of Tolkien's would LOVE to travel to Middle Earth in some way and be a part of the adventure. I think that 10th Walker/Mary Sues are just expressing this desire. Myself? If I had some machine to take me there I would be on it yesterday!!!!

maybe we should give her rainbow hair....j_mercuryuk

I did... I have red, gold and brown hair thanks to foils!!!!

:love::love::love:

Cheers all!

Nimmie

:love::love::love:
Nienquia
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: March 21, 2005 11:02
Hmmm, I agree with you at some points. It is true that what exactly defines a Mary Sue is rather vague. Some consider every O(F)C (original (female) character) or self inserts to be an MS. Yet in my opinion, this doesn't have to be at all. I wrote some blatant self inserts before in my life; they were absolutely NO Mary Sues. But it may have helped, that it concerned original fiction.

I don't think Mary Sues origin out of discrimination in any sense. The Tenth Walker is a good example. It is not that there aren't any women allowed in the fellowship (as far as I know), but rather that there are nine walkers set against the nine riders. Therefore a thenth walker seems rather implausible; the rules (of Tolkien's universe) are broken to give room to "your" character.

No, in my opinion, it's not a Mary Sue until the character becomes annoying due to all her perfection, privileges and specialties. And such annoying things are: taking over the story; overshadowing the main characters and having all the rules of the universe in question bent for her in order to make her better than everyone else.

I like original characters in stories; they can really add something, when done well. And yes, everyone who writes goes through this stage in some way. Mary Sues are wish fulfilment; living your fantasy. And that's fine, but such fantasies are often not very interesting for others to read. But one can and should learn from such experiences and come to create realistic characters with depth, many people like to read about.

Oof! Look at me blabbing on! I like this topic; it's so divert!

@ Nimrodelsong: what tale are you referring to? The story I was talking about in my previous post was Divinity's.
nimrodelsong
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: March 23, 2005 12:31
@ Nimrodelsong: what tale are you referring to? The story I was talking about in my previous post was Divinity's.

OOPS! Looks like I'm a bit mixed up here. I thought it was yours. The story I'm talking about concerns a vampire in Middle Earth, I thought it was yours. I've read something similar and am wondering if it is the same one. It is very good.
eruwenolorien
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: March 25, 2005 08:06
dude... after faramirs_first_kiss's description of a mary sue, i'm suffering from PMSW (post-mary sue writing) syndrome. my character is becoming a mary sue! (oh well... i don't mind!)

though i haven't read many mary sues, what few i have read were excessively annoying in their writing style. it felt like a middle earth set 'clueless'/'legally blonde' movie. though, all in all, i don't see much wrong with creating mary sues. we've all got to come to our senses and remind ourselves, 'duh, this if FAN FICTION' not 'i'm-making-a-million-bucks-off-of-sickeningly-perfect-characters fiction.'

it never hurts to let go of your inner mary sue, to release your killer dreams and fantasies. so by all means, keep marying suing!
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: March 26, 2005 01:31
Okay, time to revise my hard-line stance on Mary-Sues (or at least what I'm aware it seems to be from this thread). The chief sins of Suedom are:

1) Not recognising your character as a Mary Sue
---- and by extension
2) Passionately denying it when someone points out that your character is a Mary Sue (either a real-life person, a commenter, or a test)
3) Thinking everyone else should like your character and recognise her as the wonderful, outstanding, different individual you think she is.

I know Mary Sue is easy and (to some) fun to write, and I don't think it should stop because it is a great introduction to writing. It was definitely mine. Also, to people with a certain mindset (nine year old girls, for instance) Mary Sue stories are the epitome of brilliance. It's a real confidence boost to find a comment on your fanfic telling you that it's the most amazing story this person has ever read, but anyone who reads a Sue-fic where the writer clearly enjoys writing enough to want to carry on (especially if the individual is talented), a gentle nudge in the direction of a Mary-Sue test might be the kindest thing to do.
nimrodelsong
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: March 28, 2005 12:12
I am unashamedly a Mary Sue! :love::love::evil:
glory2glorfindel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: April 11, 2005 08:07
"This was a good dream...

Roxanna opened her eyes and found herself staring at a clear blue sky. The sun was shining, the birds were singing in the nearby forest. She sat up and looked around herself. She beamed. On the other side of the nearby river she could see delicately carved buildings that shone brilliantly in the sunshine. She gasped in wonder. She recognised it immediately as Rivendell, home of Elrond (that bloke who looked exactly like the one from that computer film with Keanu Reeves in it). She closed her eyes and opened them again. No, she was not dreaming: she was really here. Here, in Middle Earth, by some wonderful miracle.

This was her destiny. Aged fourteen and with perfect skin, teeth and nose, she knew she was meant to be here. Her pointy ears had always meant she was picked on at school but here things would be different. She would fall in love with Legolas and the entire Fellowship would fall in love with her. She would save Boromir, warn them about the Balrog, perhaps persuade Theoden not to fight and die in battle.

She heard the sound of hooves and turned, smiling, to see two horses approaching. One had a tall man atop its saddle who was unkempt in appearance but stunningly good-looking underneath his stubble. The other horse, also with a saddle and bridle, carried an even taller figure with long flowing blonde hair and behind him sat a short squat bearded man in a helmet.

She beamed again, flashing those perfect teeth at them. “Hello there, Aragorn! Legolas! Gimli! Wow, it’s really great to see you guys, you know!”

They stopped their mounts and descended, eyeing her warily. Aragorn spoke, “What are you doing here? You are young to be wandering unaccompanied in these parts.”

She grinned, “Ah, but Aragorn, you gorgeous hunk you, I am Elrond’s long lost niece.”

Aragorn smiled.

Legolas smiled.

Gimli smiled.

Roxanna suddenly felt slightly nervous.

The man, elf and dwarf exchanged a look. “What do you think?” asked Gimli.

Legolas shook his head, “No doubt about it.”

Aragorn nodded, “My sentiments exactly.” He drew his sword. “Die, Oh Mary- Sue, spawn of Morgoth!”

Roxanna’s head flew several yards before it rolled into a hollow.

There was a snort of laughter from Penny as she turned over in her sleep. Yes, this was a very good dream. She could still smell the fresh air and sense the fresh outdoors even now. She could feel herself waking up but in that half-dream state where the line between fantasy and reality is blurred. This was terribly vivid. She could even feel a drizzle on her face. She rolled over. Her cheek hit something wet and cold. She sat bolt upright in shock and her eyes wide open. She looked around her. And started screaming."

~from boz4PM's story "Don't Panic" (here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1690622/1/ and the sequel here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1812394/1/ )




So, shall we make a list?
How to Avoid/Fix MS/GS Characters in Fanfiction You Plan to Post or Share with Others
My contributions, mostly compiled from earlier posts...:

~~ Do not make them a long-lost relative of anyone, even OCs. A relative, okay, maybe, possibly, if you're very careful. A friend, sure, as long as it's established somewhere. Just-- no long-lost anythings, especially if you're unsure of how you set it up. Some can be excused, I think, if the relative/friend is not Aragorn, Legolas, Elrond, Arwen, Frodo-- the well known, overly fangirled characters. For example, Orchyd Constyne wrote a wonderful fic involving Erestor being raised by his mother, after his father left them, presumably because the elves were leaving (although another reason was given later). Turns out that his father was a well-enough-known-but-presumed-dead Silmarillion elf. And that //worked//, because poor Erestor was screwed over, tortured, etc, a lot... not until his da came back, but until an elf that he had never ever known was told of his existence and came to rescue him..

~~ Give her/him flaws. Make them forgetful, prone to doing something negative, etc.

~~ If they are zatted-back-to-Middle-Earth-modern-day-girls/guys, do not make them automatically adept at magic (which, in and of itself, is not a bad thing), healing (seriously, who in this world knows more than that willow is good for mild aches in a tincture, or that datura (thornapple) is a very strong hallucinogenic and will sedate people if necessary? I suppose you could have her/him reading homeopathic medicine guides in her modern-day-life, but that sounds a bit unlikely), fighting (unless possibly martial arts. Even modern day fencers would be unlikely to be very good authentic swordsmen/women. Their swords are too light, they learn to just tap the other person... etc.), navigation (The most I think any of us who got dropped into M-e would be able to recognize might be the Misty Mountains or the Plains of Rohan, unless we were, for some unknown reason, dropped in a town...), etc.

~~ Include the training/apprenticeship period in the story. This is a very good place to include problems-- wanting to quit, getting hurt, wanting-to-do-something-but-can't, conflicting duties (to self, to family, to friends, etc).

~~ She doesn't necessarily have to be ugly, or even ordinary looking, but it's best if you don't write about how she can't walk down the street without people stopping and staring for ten minutes.

~~ Make her wear a dress-- even Eowyn didn't wear breeches and coat until she was disguised as Dernhelm. Maybe she's frustrated with it, or her slippers aren't very good for running in, or she has trouble getting into something, be it saddle or anything else...

~~ do something with that hair already! No, not wave it behind her like a glimmering banner, or some such. Make her/him braid it or have trouble braiding it. Or make it get in their faces (As long as it's not "The wind from the clear sky caught her golden amber hair and flung it ahead of her, where it shone in the sun. She cleared it from her face so she could see the approaching Orc army. There was no possiblity her four score of [insert name of famously good-at-fighting race] could hold them off..."), or tangled (and no, Legolas cannot brush it for her).




"Mary Sue was a person. And I knew her in 1963. Why did she die? Did she die? Oh, you're so cute-- She was a fun... I loved her. She had beautiful eyes and blonde hair, maybe she didn't have blonde hair, but oh well. We were once girlfriend and boyfriend, really we were great together. One time we tried getting married, but that didn't work out, so we got divorced and we had that big hassle over everything. I'm 101 years old..."
~~ My insane sister....
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: April 11, 2005 10:50
loved the caption. can you give me a link to that erestor fic through, it sounds interesting.
glory2glorfindel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: April 12, 2005 07:54
(((((The title of that fic is "Something Real", and the author's whole fic index can be found here:
http://ofelvesandmen.com/StoriesbyAuthor/O/OrchydConstyne.htm

DO BE AWARE: ---- It is slash, and many of her stories include various incestual and dom/sub themes---- (hence the site name, Of Elves and Men) Don't go there if you don't like slash, do not flame me if you ignore this warning. Thank you very much.))))))


And back to the point of this thread....


I can't think of more.....

~~ Don't throw your character off a cliff and let them survive, only to show up in a moment of desperate need *cough*Aragorn*cough*

[Edited on 20/4/2005 by glory2glorfindel]
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: April 15, 2005 08:07
don't worry, i'm not stupid enough to do that. I hate it when people don't listen to warnings, or author notes and then complain.
The fic is pretty good through, I've read the first 14 parts, I did skip some more heavy slash bit *cough*elrond and glorfindel in bed*cough*. but i like it.
HeriTavaril
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: April 18, 2005 08:39
I like this thread! Some very amusing as well as thought provoking posts. There are also discussions on the things that bug me about fan fiction regarding Mary Sue. I have 2 fictions on the go that possibly contain Mary Sues, One is an ordinary 26 year old grandaughter of a maid of Gilraen who falls in love with Boromir (but he doesn't sleep with her and she doesn't think he loves her) She is hopeless with weapons but I suppose she has some of the Mary-Sue qualities. She did only score about 3 on the MS test though. My other candidate for sue-dom (is that a word?) is the illegitimate daughter of Boromir but she is only 7 so is not in any position to do many of the Mary Sue type things. I have read some Mary Sues who are OK even when they fall in love with Legolas. I have only recently started writing again after about 34 years. I may not ever publish my Mary Sues but I am having a tremendous amount of fun writing them. A lot of the time the ideas come to me when I'm doing something else - it almost seems the stories write themselves - this particularly happens with another series I started which is an Aragorn Legolas slash where the elf seems to be sitting on my shoulder telling me what to write next. Legolas by the way needs to do a lot of brushing up on spelling and grammar although he can use a spell checker! " Who is this strange wizard microsoft of whom you speak and why is this spell called checker?".
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: April 19, 2005 12:41

DO BE AWARE: ---- It is slash---- (hence the site name, Of Elves and Men) Don't go there if you don't like slash, do not flame me if you ignore this warning. Thank you very much.))))))



you forgot insest
glory2glorfindel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: April 19, 2005 06:18
j_mercuryuk -- not trying to insult you or anything, but if you have further comments on that fic that haven't anything to do with this thread, you can PM me, right? Or feedback the author or something. But I do want to keep this thread on track, and I have the feeling it'll be closed if we carry it into the deep deep pit of slash warnings. I will edit my warning though, thank you.

Does anyone want to help me continue my list of How To Avoid MarySues?
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: April 19, 2005 11:39
If your gonna make a female warrior or something, DON'T MAKE IT REALLY UNUSAL. If you don't make a comment on how it's rare and odd and she's very unique, then people who would normally say it's a MS can just think "ok, new rule. Fine". I've read fics that have put she-elves in the army and they haven't said any thing about this being odd. It works.

Just because your women wears a dress, doesn't make her any less indepenant, or strong etc. Ok, have her wear tunic and leggings when it appropriate. But if she always refuses to wear a dress and causes a scence when she has to, I think it just makes her seem insecure. . . . and an annoying spoilt brat who doesn't know who to act approriately.


[Edited on 20/4/2005 by j_mercuryuk]
Twylight_Aelf
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 23, 2005 02:32
'Cool' eye and/or hair colour - common colours include purple, silver, gold, red, pure white and pure black. It's absolutely amazing how many people think they're being original when they choose one of these six colours.


While I get most of the colors, I don't get the purple and black bit. Black is a real eye color and I'm not sure if you mean 'pure' as in all-over black-eyes like the eyes of the orc who said "Inspection!" In RotK-EE (excuse me if I :drool: over them) or just any black eyes. Violet is also a normal eye color, so I don't get the thing with 'purple' either. Of the colors listed only gold, silver, and pure white are what I consider Mary-Sue colors. If she's an orc, red works.

I also don't get the thing about special weapon/jewelry from an important person to her. Do they mean a magical weapon or magical jewelry, or just any special thing from an important person to her? Example: In one fanfiction, the heroine from the real word has a cheap locket her little brother gave her. Does this count as a Mary-Suish detail?

There's also questions about getting injured/captured frequently and getting healed by favorite characters. Since my character is stuck in Mordor and orcs are orcs, she does get injured 'frequently', but not severely, except for when she's poisoned). As far as favourite characters saving or healing her, Gorbag prevents her from killing herself in a stupid attempt to escape and Morhont (the previously mentioned black-eyed orc) deals with a poisoned gash. But those two times are done typical orc-fashion and within reason.

These are my answers to the Mary-Sue test. Tell me if it sounds like a Mary-Sue.

1) Is your character incredibly beautiful?
No.

2) Even more beautiful than Lúthien?
Definitely not

3) Does she have unusual hair/eye colour?
No. She's auburn with blue eyes

4) Do you use more than 2 sentences to describe her appearance?
No. It's in first person, so you mostly see only her reactions and thoughts.

5) Does she have a beautiful and/or unusual name?
Her name is Joanne Sanders, plain and normal.

6) Do you wish that was your real name, or is that also your elvish name?
No

7) Is she an elf, or a half-elf? Actually, is she half-something?
No

Is she related to someone important in Middle-Earth, like Elrond or Galadriel?
Not at all

9) Has she been transported to Middle-Earth from the modern world?
Yes

10) Does one of Tolkien’s characters hopelessly fall in love with her?
No, they're Orcs.

11) Is she in love with one of Tolkien’s characters?
No, she's stuck with a bunch of filthy orcs

12) Is this also your favourite Tolkien’s character?
She doesn't fall in love with anybody: they're orcs!

13) Is it Legolas?
No elves, sorry.

14) Does she have a dark and mysterious past?
No

15) Does that trouble her?
No

16) Does that trouble her so much other characters have to spend valuable time to comfort her?
No

17) Is she a skilled warrior?
She has no idea how to fight with Middle-Earth weapons at all.

1 Is she actually one of the best warriors in Middle Earth?
No

19) Can she actually pretty much defeat anyone? Even Sauron, if she’d really want to?
Nope

20) Does she also have magical skills?
No

21) Does she have the gift of foresight? Or does she get strange vibes? Does she see dead people?
No

22) Does she own a special weapon that was given to her by someone important to her?
No.

23) Does she own any special jewellery given to her by someone important to her?
Yeah, a locket with a picture of her little brother.

24) Can she talk to animals?
No

25) Do animals only obey her, and no-one else?
No

26) Does she have an unusual pet, like a unicorn?
No

27) Can she turn into an animal, possibly a unicorn?
No

2 Is she clever, or very wise?
She's clever enough to survive, of course, but not enough to solve world problems or change the orcs into heroes.

29) Is she wiser than Gandalf and Elrond together?
No

30) Does she actually know everything?
She knows next to nothing about Middle-Earth, she's not a real fan of Tolkien

31) Is she a skilled healer?
No

32) Despite all this, does she get injured/captured?
She gets injured like any one else, but I don't know about captured.

33) Does she actually get injured/captured frequently?
Not especially. Though she's able to be hurt.

34) Does your favourite Tolkien’s character save/heal her?
Gorbag prevents her from killing herself trying to escape and Morhont deals with a poisoned gash. But as far as being tortured, captured, injured dramatically, and hurt/comfort, none of that happens.

[Edited on 24/5/2005 by Twylight_Aelf]
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 24, 2005 05:22
It just sounds like a girl fall s into ME story to me. The locket is cool 'cause it's just a sentimental object give by her brother.
The whole caputure regularly thing is just if she gets captured about 6 times during the fic (or something rediculous like that).
I say it's MS proof.
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 24, 2005 08:40
While violet is a (rare) eye-colour, purple is not. It's also definitely not a natural hair colour I read a fic once where a girl supposedly had waist-length naturally purple hair and had an angsty past full of bullying because of it. As for black, for white girls (and the majority of people transported to Middle-earth do indeed seem to be young white females) it is extremely rare to have properly black hair (not just dark brown) or black eyes. Orcish Mary-Sues are rare indeed

Your character sounds perfectly safe, and an interesting take on the ol' cliché of a real-world girl getting dropped into M-e. Most of them are dropped there just to drool over/fall in love with/kiss Legolas (or worse).

EDIT: the item of jewellery thing is mainly a Sueish characteristic if it happens to either be magic or remind the character of the fact that all her family was brutally slaughtered by orcs, since she's a semi-amnesiac and can't remember much of her life before her quest for revenge.

[Edited on 24/5/2005 by Faramirs_first_kiss]
Twylight_Aelf
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 24, 2005 03:37
It's MS-proof? Yay! I'm safe.

Mary-Sues remind me of the little girl fantasies (the ones with flying unicorns and a bright-sparkly feel that everyone who know nothing about fantasy seem to think about a lot). Ick!

Your character sounds perfectly safe, and an interesting take on the ol' cliché of a real-world girl getting dropped into M-e. Most of them are dropped there just to drool over/fall in love with/kiss Legolas (or worse).


My worst fear is her falling in love with Gorbag or Morhont (can I gag??), since she's around them a lot in the story and they are a couple of my favorite characters in the movies. Thankfully, so far both of them have been behaving very much like orcs. I'd hate to be in her place, no matter how pretty the eyes of Mr. "Inspection!" are because his, um, attitude is NOT . Poor girl.

EDIT: the item of jewellery thing is mainly a Sueish characteristic if it happens to either be magic or remind the character of the fact that all her family was brutally slaughtered by orcs, since she's a semi-amnesiac and can't remember much of her life before her quest for revenge.


That's actually rather funny! MS: "Um... what am I doing... Oh yeah! Revenge! Yah!"

While violet is a (rare) eye-colour, purple is not. It's also definitely not a natural hair colour I read a fic once where a girl supposedly had waist-length naturally purple hair and had an angsty past full of bullying because of it. As for black, for white girls (and the majority of people transported to Middle-earth do indeed seem to be young white females) it is extremely rare to have properly black hair (not just dark brown) or black eyes. Orcish Mary-Sues are rare indeed


Good point about the purple and violet thing.

Lol! That's a sad case of MS.

Yeah, there does seem to be a majority of young white females in M-E, now that I think of it. Good points on all cases.

[Edited on 27/5/2005 by Twylight_Aelf]
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 29, 2005 12:24
I got this review for one of my fanfics yesterday:
Glorfindel is male. Don't give mary sues the names of LOTR characters.
Especially if the names are of a different sex.

I'm upset because I get the feeling that they haven't read the fic properly, if at all, and I don't think the charater is a MS. But I want to make sure, I would like a couple of people to read what it, without prejudice if possible, and tell me if they think it is. It proberly won't change much because a) I'm enjoying it and b) people tend to say they like it.
Twylight_Aelf
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 29, 2005 03:00
they are never orcs or Uruk-ais.


I beg to differ... I've seen orc-MSes. They weren't friendly or good, mind you. But perfect. No errors in their judgements, everyone bows to them, they are responsible to the victory of Sauron (or even join the Fellowship!!)... etc. And they may be 'related' (as related as an orc can be) to some important orc somewhere. Like Gothmog.

[Edited on 30/5/2005 by Twylight_Aelf]
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 29, 2005 11:57
That produces disturbing thoughts.
Twylight_Aelf
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 30, 2005 05:24
Yeah, but why not? Orcs are M-E people too, you know . Then again, that doesn't explain why I have yet to read a dwarf MS yet...

[Edited on 30/5/2005 by Twylight_Aelf]
Princess_Sailasiri
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 30, 2005 09:14
Mary sues! I've run into a few of them before and they can definetly be frightening. I remember one from another Tolkien rpg forum that was particularly ghastly. She was an elven witch with long silver hair who was Legolas's ex-wife. She also had the power to give herself a mermaid's tale or randomly change into a xena warrior princess costume if the need presented itself. It was pretty scary.

I have a question.
Does anyone have a suggestion for a plausible reason for a gondorian woman to leave her home? I'm trying to create my first rpg character but I don't want to fall into the mary sue cliche of having her seek revenge or become a female ranger.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 30, 2005 09:44
Does anyone have a suggestion for a plausible reason for a gondorian woman to leave her home?

Is she a noblewoman or a commoner? A noblewoman could, for example, be sent to the court to become a maiden in the company of the Queen (or the Steward's wife, if the time is pre-LOTR), and a commoner could have to take a job as a servant, or a waitress in an inn, or something like that. Or, she could be sent to live with some relatives.
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 30, 2005 12:12
Okay, Princess, you are in a very important time for the development of your character: deciding why she's going to be a character in the first place, not just some person in the background. Why is it that she is involved in events worthy of RPing?

With a female in LotR, this is a difficult question to answer since the majority of them were trained to weave and produce babies (nobles) or farm and produce babies (commoners) from birth. Revenge-seeking female rangers are worryingly common. Looking at the period in history that Gondorian society was loosely based on, a Gondorian woman who found her whole family murdered would either have to find another family pretty quick, take to the streets, or die of starvation. The amount of sword-swinging female highwaywomen was remarkably few.

Naturally, though, unless you're going to play her in highly political games (very few of these one CoE), there needs to be a reason she's available for adventure. My biggest tip is to have whatever disaster it is that forces her out happen right before she's introduced to a thread, before she has time to cultivate those amazing rangering skills that so many of her peers have. Whether she's gone home from a day washing clothes in the river to find her whole village in ruins or her carriage has been attacked on the way to an arranged marriage, have her stumble straight out of that predicament and into whatever it is that the group is doing. The fact that she's so disoriented anyway might make it easier for you to find her motivation to accompany the group, and the fact that the RP will turn into a documentation of the time she was recovering from the Tragic Past will help to make sure she's properly grounded in realism.

Also, if you haven't RPed before, RPing a clueless character (say, one not at all used to the adventuring life) can be a great way to sit back a little until you're more confident with how the whole thing works. When you feel like you want a bit more say in what the group does, your character becomes a bit more confident and so on. Above all, though, have fun!
Princess_Sailasiri
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 30, 2005 12:33
Thanks for the awesome advice guys! I think I have tenative plan now. I'm glad I asked, I want to avoid as many Mary sue errors as I can.
Annûniel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 30, 2005 03:52
Éowyn and Harry Potter are both very well known Mary-Sue/Gary-Stus and yet these characters are mostly accepted and loved by those who read them. So why is this?

It was probably you, Faramirs_first_kiss, who said this, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that authors go through fazes: the first being a weak MS type character that makes readers shudder; the second being almost dull character that cannot at all be mistaken for a MS; and then the third being a well-written and plausible MS who we actually do love.

If this is so, when does one "graduate" from one level to the next? When is an author's Mary-Sue "acceptable" to the average reader? Or is a MS always a MS and should be burned at the stake no matter how well the author made the character work?
Failië
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 30, 2005 04:01
I really like some "believeable" Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters. Maybe it's all an opinion about what a MS is...sorta.

I mean, it's obvious if you make a horrible story about a girl who could defeat Sauron in a snap (oh and she has rainbow hair and is beautiful beyond belief), but goes with the Fellowship anyway and happens to fall in love with Frodo/Legolas/Aragorn/ect. because of her cleverness, fighting skills, loyalty, kindness, and great magical powers.

But if someone has regular features, like brown or blonde hair, has character flaws like anyone, DOESN'T fall in love with Legolas, can't do magic unless they're a maia or something, and can only manage to keep themselves alive in battle...and it's well written that's an ok story depending on how it goes.

I guess some of this has been said a bit before but I feel like saying it again to prove my point...

Ok so here's the point:

We love Eowyn and Harry because they're well written and believeable. The end.
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: May 30, 2005 11:38
Maybe it's because people don't reliase that they are MS/GS. I put up a poll in the book forum and most people said tat Eowyn wasn't a MS.
I think it's also the fact that they are more subtle MS's. They have flaws and weakness do make them believable and likable. They are author MS not fan MS.
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