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Twylight_Aelf
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 20, 2005 11:18
I agree. The enemy wouldn't leave women or children alone just because they aren't armed soldiers or belong to a country they aren't at outright war with. I don't think any man who actually cares for his family wouldn't make sure his wife and daughters know how to defend themselves because orcs do attack peaceful villages and the men might not be there for them. The "no women fighter" statement makes me think perhaps whoever said it thinks the men in Middle-Earth are stupid or somehow the women are considered untouchable by the orcs.

[Edited on 6/20/2005 by Twylight_Aelf]
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 21, 2005 07:03
I hate to say it, but that's the way it's always worked in history. Whether that means all men in the real world are stupid (not my opinion) or the women have always been considered untouchable I don't know, but ordinary women living at home in the villages just are not taught to fight. Roman women weren't taught to fight even though service in the Roman legions could mean the men were away from home for twenty five years. The theory was that the men were the best fighters and so it was better to train them and use them to protect the women. I'm not saying I agree with this at all, it is just the way things have worked in the history upon which Tolkien based his works.
Twylight_Aelf
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 21, 2005 01:54
On the contrary, they weren't taught to fight as though to go to war, but they did know how to defend themselves. Some women did know how to fight; some didn't. Same with the men, though it was rarer for a man not to know how to fight.

Think of the colonists in America. The women knew how to handle a gun to protect themselves from angry natives and animals. However, this was to protect them and was taught by men.
pv
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 22, 2005 02:48
The Mary Sue problem probably arises because we are modern women writing about what is essentially a medieval world. In the medieval world, a woman was limited to keeping house and looking beautiful. In modern times, while we continue to keep house and look beautiful women fortunately have many ways to express their intelligence - through their careers, etc.

When a modern woman writes Tolkien fan fiction, she may not be satisfied with creating a woman who's typically medieval, because her own life is so much richer. Her female character therefore picks up a sword, which is the medieval equivalent of joining the workforce.
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DaughterofNimrodel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 22, 2005 07:48
You know I find this fascinating. The conversation really isn't about Mary Sue anymore, but whether or not women should be trained fighters in Tolkien fanfiction. I would like to point out, though I'm not disagreeing with this, that thus far the argument has been that woman in OUR history did not fight. I think it's important to remember that Middle Earth is not OUR history, so to compare the two may not be the best course. Now I realize that yes, the culture of ME is very much like that of the Medievel times and that Tolkien got inspiration from such things, but that does not mean that woman did not fight. I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here, I just thought someone should point that out.
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pv
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 22, 2005 09:53
I guess, a character who fights unrealistically well would be a Mary Sue (ie. killing 10 orcs with a couple of elegant strokes of her sword) and a character who fights realistically well wouldn't be a Mary Sue (ie. sweating it out, struggling a bit, sustaining minor injuries & then killing an orc or two.)

It's not what she does, but how she does it, that makes the difference.
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DaughterofNimrodel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 23, 2005 04:11
[quoteIt's not what she does, but how she does it, that makes the difference.

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. Really, it's all how the writer portrays it. If the writer makes the whole magic thing, or fighting thing work realistically in a story, and it is well written than I don't think it'a a Mary Sue.
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pv
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 23, 2005 05:14
It's all a question of what you have in mind, when you're writing. If you're writing about the kind of person you dream of being (eg. beautiful, intelligent, perfect in every way) then you might create a Mary Sue.

But while writing, if you're thinking of real people whom you know, with all their quirks and oddities, then you'll probably create more realistic characters.

But then, there's no rule that says your characters have to be realistic. Superman & James Bond are successful because they are male Mary Sues.
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Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 24, 2005 12:13
It's not what she does, but how she does it, that makes the difference.

Exactly.

And, one thing that matters is the culture from which the character comes from. For example, I woulnd't write about a female Ranger of Ithilien; because Gondor was like it was, the roles of men and women must have been more traditional. But, I could well write about a merchant's widow from Minas Tirith who after her husband's death takes over his business and, against all expectations, succeeds in keeping it going. On the other hand, I could well imagine the Dúnedain of the North, a small people living in rather similar conditions as the pioneers, to teach their womenfolk to defend themselves in case of being attacked while most of the men are away; a "Haleth" of a Dúnadan village would not seem unrealistic to me.
elf_girl_Edhelanna
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 27, 2005 05:07
If all the elements in the story come together, ie the action is gripping, the characters 'simpatico' and the narrative flows, most people may not realise the MS within the story. Like I said previously, well written strong female characters should not automatically be tagged a MS. Warnings are good but you'll figure out a good story from the very beginning. A writer's job is to draw the reader in and keep them there by good storytelling. If the reader doesn't like it, they are free to exit anytime.
DaughterofNimrodel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: June 28, 2005 03:39
Elf_girl I couldn't agree with you more! REally this whole Mary Sue thing is to vague and depending on who you ask differnt things make an MS I think the whole thing is too vague to encompass anything more than badly written stories. In which case they don't just pertain to OC stories.
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Thalifëaiel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: April 07, 2007 05:38
Aww... darn. I almost wish I hadn't stumbled upon this thread, for "ignorance is bliss."
I am now terribly aware of my characters, for I too, write fanfics.

But lately I have thought of something and hope to keep to it: I will write for myself. Now, I know that may sound quite selfish, but... I suppose I first started writing just because I liked to. And along the way, I started turning from that and wrote to entertain or please people.
Now reading some replies to this topic and reviewing my own writing and doing some thinking on the subject, I think I'll still go with my main intention. I'll write because I like to, whatever or whoever makes an appearance in my stories.
Crimson_Angel1992
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: October 10, 2008 12:43
alright, i know MS are not muched like but i have read stories that they were good.

now i have a character that i always use, no mater what FF world it is in. and the only unsual thing on her is her eyes which are red but i have used thoses before and know one has a problem with them. i am currently writing a new story, a LOTRs one, and i want to use her again but not make her seem so MS so i would love some constructive critisims advice thing so i can make her better here is Kira,

She has medium brown hair and red eyes,( won't budge on the eyes) but scars on her pale skin that do skick out. and i do have long discription but i always do that.

she does have a semi bad past, loving mother, nigleting stepfather, real father uknown (not someone in the ME realm), firends who are like sisters murdered four years before she goes to ME (10 years before the WOTR), yes she does have a very bad year before she goes to ME because of a prohocey, and is reunited with her sisters who are not perfect either

she is insane and moody, she doesn't win everything, and yes she does love Legolas, (i know it is over done but that is one thing i will not budge on. ) she does have bad habits, and does know how to fight hand to hand, learns archery and swordmanship from they guys, and throwing knives, good at achery and throwing knives not the greatist at swordsmasnship. and she cannot beat aragon or boramir on the first fight, she gets close but doesn't happen. i am not changing the original characters to match her or her sisters personality,

she is a witch like on charmed and also have the gift of nature, she cannot totally control it or create it out of thin are but she can communicate with it and kinda manipulate it after many many years of training. and yes she does become an elf along with her sisters. and they each have a gift but it isn't all powerfull,

also this story starts out with kiras story but it doesn't stay like that it goes back and forth between all of the characters, well most. is this too much like a mary sue? i have used this charactor before (personality and looks wise) and haven't got any problem before. so is she too much MS if so help me tone her down i can comprimise.
Gwenniel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 07, 2010 07:27
I once tried my hand at fan fiction. Took the test. Found out she was almost a Mary-Sue

:banghead:

Dammit!
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