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vaya
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: April 02, 2006 03:35
There are things we cannot see (like air). What proof do we have that it exists other than we believe we must have it to breathe?


We know what it is made of and we can see the molecules.


And we can see the atoms, and we can see the neutron, electrons and so on and so on, but beyond that, we can only guess.

I don't really understand what kind of proof you want.


100 percent. Scientific proof.

:rolleyes:

Mrph, heh, hah, BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Oh honey, if you wanted to prove that you don't actually get scientific processes, congratualations, ya just did.

Scientific theories have to meet certain criteria, one of these is falsifiability, ie it has to be possible to prove it wrong. God can't be proven wrong, by its very nature (essentially any "proof" that god doesn't exist can be countered with "god is omnipotent, therefore it can manipulate the evidence to make it look like it contradicts its existence)




I really won't know unless I ask so I did. I am trying to KNOW FOR A FACT. The Dalai Lama himself, who is supposed to be a living Angel Of Compassion, said that there was no proof of Karma or Reincarnation and that he was nothing more than a simple monk. So I am asking is Wicca real, or Paganism whatever the proper term.


Of course Wicca is real, this thread is proof. Or did you think pagans and wiccans were a figment of your imagination. :rolleyes:


And like I said before I am NOT trying to be unrespectful. Yes, I DO want to be right but not in the way you said. I want to know what the real religion is. I want to know if God is real or if their is a Goddess or am I right and no God or Goddess exsists at all? Is that wrong?

This 'I want the right religion' frame of mind is also the reason for all the fundy's. I don't want to be a fundy. I just want to know the truth that is all.

And yes, I know religion isn't bad just the people are yet if we could prove what religion was right or if it existed at all it may be better.

If you could prove that god didn't exsist then people would have to stop being so stupid and intolerant. I suppose they'd still make up some reason to be stupid.


This has got to be the funniest part of the whole thing. Yes you are wrong, because you're starting with all the wrong questions and the wrong frame of mind.

Aside from the desperate backpeddling, this just proves what I just said in my last post. "You can take the girl out of church, but you can't take the church out of the girl"

You're looking for something that has a physical presence, something separate from us that is imminent in our lives. In other words, you're looking for god sitting on a cloud to come down and say "Yes, here I am, touch me, observe me and measure me"

But as I just explained, you can't prove god's existence using scientific means, nor can you disprove it (this works both ways you know)

Or worse, you're looking for someone to take you by the shoulders, turn you around, point and say, "There's god right there."

Which is lazy and frankly irresponsible.

If you think even for a second that god is something that someone else is going to reveal to you, you've got another thing coming. God cannot be found by following someone else's directions. You can build off of knowledge that other people are willing to share, but to actually find "proof" of god's existence is something you have to do on your own. And you can look all over the world, at every church, mosque, synagogue, temple, look in every book, but if you're not willing to look within, you end up running around in circles.

As for "which religion is right" that's assuming that any of them are right or that any of them are wrong. That's assuming that someone drew a lucky ticket with all the answers on it. God is too big for that. we cannot hope to fully understand god, because god is everything and our puny brains can't comprehend everything, all we got are little snippits of information formed by our own perceptions.

So drop this little fantasy that you have that there is somewhere a scrap of paper that will neatly give you all the answers you want. People spend their whole lives trying to understand god (even multiple lives), you're not going to find it by sitting there posting on internet forums, particularly when you're threatening that you will burn your membership card if we don't give you satisfying proof that doesn't exist.


[Edited on 2/4/2006 by vaya]
Fíriel
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: April 02, 2006 04:02
edit: posted before seeing Vaya's message.

Err. I hope nobody minds my interjecting here (I find these things interesting), but:

Either it exsists or it does not.

I don't really understand what kind of proof you want.


100 percent. Scientific proof.


Putting aside what Burzlondewen said for a moment, that religion is basically a matter of faith; science, or at least scientific theories and hypotheses, are not infallible. They're subject to revision or even disregard ('steady state', 'heliocentric' are examples), and I think even most scientists wouldn't claim to be able to discover the 'absolute truth', a state which you seem to desire. To believe without questioning that science can provide absolute truth is IMHO the same as believing without questioning that religion can reveal to you that same truth. In other words, trusting completely in science still might not bring you the knowledge you desire.

(Faintingstar, you might be interested in 'grand/meta-narrative', if you're not already. Some of your thoughts are similar to criticisms directed at this concept.)

Anyway, sorry for intruding on all of your personal space, but I can't help it. I do have some interest in Wicca -- when one's constantly labelled a 'pagan' by Abrahamic followers, one can't help but take an interest. (The God/Goddess duality is fascinating for me.) I'm a Buddhist/deist/agnostic fence-sitter though, so I suppose the whole issue of religion doesn't peturb me too much.

[Edited on 2/4/2006 by Fíriel]
chreotha
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: April 02, 2006 06:53
honey, if you can not find your answers within your own heart, then you never will.

That's all i had to add to all of this stuff. and i love you all for your own opinions. its been facinating to read
vaya
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: April 17, 2006 01:43
Happy Ostara everyone!

May the blessings of Springtime be upon you...may new life kiss you all.
chreotha
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: April 18, 2006 06:44
oh and it was SUCH a beautifully clear sky here to see the moon!
SilverMoonLady
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: May 01, 2006 06:52
*bump*

Joyous Beltane! The Wheel is turning and the Lady adorns herself in May blossoms for us all to admire and enjoy

Much joy to you all!
BelleBayard
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: May 01, 2006 12:31
Had an absolutlely awesome celebration yesterday (yes, I know it was early, but when you work M-F you have to do what you can.) Our little group is working out quite well and we had a very pleasant day - calling to the quarters and remembering that Beltane is the joining of the Lord and Lady to bless the earth with fecundity. The meal afterwards was delicious (cream of potato soup, bread, sandwiches, deviled eggs and sooo much more!).

Hope all have a wonderful day!
Neenime
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: May 03, 2006 04:55
Reading past posts (mostly form April). I am disturbed by the some people's need to laugh at others' spiritual questions or to call them irresponsible and lazy. That is NOT respectful or appropriate and I hope not to see any more of that here.

I think we each enter the realm of spiritual questions with a true wish to know ourselves and the divine (however we define that). We each have a particular mind-set and preferences. Some want certainty, others want variety; some want a personal deity, others take a less personal view; some are purists and others are revisionists.

Let's keep it civil, folks. It is counter-productive to be mean-spirited in a discussion of spirituality du-h-uh-uh-uh!
“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
BelleBayard
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: May 03, 2006 01:25
That was pretty much what I was trying to do, Neenime. I all for people seeking their spiritual path any way they can. If that's Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or Wicca or witchcraft or Druidry or whatever, that's fine. I don't know that anyone laughed at the question rather tried to understand how one can expect scientific proof that God exists. Science is not perfection. There's still a lot out there that's unexplained and was attempting to say that we may never truly know the higher power, the Creator, as we know that bacteria exist because we see them. My arguments were most likely weak and I apologize if my frustration bled over into my posts.

I did try to defuse the situation, but I am not a post-Nazi that merrily deletes things that don't fall into my category of nice posts. Sometimes we can get a bit tetchy (as vaya said) when people continue to demand answers when the ones they get don't fulfill their expectations. Perhaps my posts were the equivalent of throwing my hands up and saying, "I don't know and I can't prove anything to you." Was her asking about "made up" religions any less denigrating? I don't know. I don't think they were irresponsible or lazy, just really difficult for me to understand.

*sigh* Let me shut up now before I really step in it.
vaya
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: May 04, 2006 02:25
Reading past posts (mostly form April). I am disturbed by the some people's need to laugh at others' spiritual questions or to call them irresponsible and lazy. That is NOT respectful or appropriate and I hope not to see any more of that here.

I think we each enter the realm of spiritual questions with a true wish to know ourselves and the divine (however we define that). We each have a particular mind-set and preferences. Some want certainty, others want variety; some want a personal deity, others take a less personal view; some are purists and others are revisionists.

Let's keep it civil, folks. It is counter-productive to be mean-spirited in a discussion of spirituality du-h-uh-uh-uh!


Right.

On second thought, no, not right.

I refuse to be poopoohed like this when I did nothing wrong. The girl was being arrogant, she didn't come here to discuss anything, she came in here to be "right" and look down on other people. I feel my responces were well mannered given the givens, and since Bellbayard, a MOD (which I note you aren't) didn't seem to have an issue with what I said, I fail to see what the problem is now.

Obviously I am all for discussion spirituality, but if you think for a second that I am going to play games with arrogant and offensive people who aren't even looking for answers, then you are seriously mistaken.






Oh, and Happy Beltane everyone
chreotha
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 05, 2006 06:52
wow this thread got aweful quiet. Lets not let anyone deter us from chatting amongst oueselves about what we are here to speak about. We are different, and different is good. anyone who does not understand or does not wish to shouldn't stop us all from communicating with each other.

I miss having all of you to chat with, I NEED you all. I am so new to this and all alone. If I could find a place to chat only about Wicca I'd be there but since this is all Ive been able to find so far then I keep coming back.

So how has everyone been lately? I finally bought Spiral Dance on ebay But it hassn't arrived yet. I'm looking forward to getting into this one.
BelleBayard
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 06, 2006 02:52
Hi, chreotha! Well, my hubby and I performed the initial ceremony of a handfasting a couple of weekends ago. It went quite well. Pretty subdued, but wait till next year! I'm making all the clothes for the wedding party and it'll be the whole thing, binding cords and all.

So far I have been lucky and haven't met with any sort of disdain for my spiritual path. Still learning the Bardic path. Hubby finished his course and has sent in his paperwork. I'm finding it fascinating to see how various symbolism has worked its way into so many things today.
arya_luver
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 06, 2006 11:51
That's exiting, B B!!!

Finally, pple who won't judge me for my paganism. Personally, I don't believe in the high goddess, though I am a wiccan. Magick is cool!!!
arya_luver
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 06, 2006 07:36
Anyone have any good spells???:evil:
arya_luver
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 07, 2006 07:36
I've never tried tarot but I did make my own rune stones. I found a book YEARS ago called "A practical guide to the runes, their uses in divination and magick" by Lisa Peschel. I get bogged down with the "big picture " too so i try to stick to a three stone reading.


I like Tarot. It's fast, simple, and easy. Even a little fun.
starofdunedain
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 08, 2006 12:32
o.k. I've read every post on this forum and been to a lot of web sites. I'm still very confused on all the different divisions. Could someone explain?

[Edited on 8/6/2006 by starofdunedain]
vaya
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 08, 2006 01:00
o.k. I've read every post on this forum and been to a lot of web sites. I'm still very confused on all the different divisions. Could someone explain?

[Edited on 8/6/2006 by starofdunedain]


Divisions? I don't understand what you're referring to
starofdunedain
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 08, 2006 03:53
well my first would be the Alexandrians/Gardnarians thing. How many different types of wicca are there?

This is what I mean.
chreotha
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 08, 2006 05:53
B.B.-That's so great! Congrats. I've read about handfasting but I dont think I'll ever do it personally. My hubby knows about my being wiccan but doesnt follow it himself. I've tried to explian it to him but hes really not interested.
the rest of my family, however is a very different story. My parents are very strictly christian and I dont believe they would be able to accept it. My aunt came out as a lesbian several years ago and my mom still doesnt accept it. It bothers me a little bit that I dont think i'll be able to tell them, but I still feel a lot of fear about coming out, so I'm still in secret for now.
Starofdunedain- I still dont understand all the different branches of wicca. But I havent really looked into it eather. I'm so very happy being solitary (that means I study alone and have no teacher) I love exploring it all and making up my own mind. My book came today, Starhawk "the spiral dance" and its the 10th anniversary edition so there are lots of extra stuff in it.
I was remembering how I came to question my parents religion a few days ago and its odd how many things I did only thinking I wanted to simplify my life and understand myself better that i later found was considered wiccan. I've been divining thru rune stones since about 1991, meditating, controled breathing, stuff like that. It all seemed to magically help me in my life in small ways but I didnt know why. Now that I consder myself a wiccan all that odd stuff makes sence, even if my rambling dont. LOL sorry, i get carried away sometimes
arya_luver
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 08, 2006 08:39
Chreotha: I'm like sorta the same, except that I don't believe in homosexuality. The differant types of wicca:

Alexandrian Tradition - Founded in England during the 1960s, Alex Sanders referred to himself as the "King" of his Witches. The rituals are said to be modified Gardenarian.

British Traditional Witch - A mix of Celtic and Gardenarian beliefs. Most famous organization at this time is the International Red Garters. British Traditionals move mostly from within the Farrar studies (the famous Witch husband and wife from England). They too are fairly structured in their beliefs, and train through the degree process. Their covens are also co-ed.

Celtic Wicca - The use of Celtic/Druidic pantheon mixed with a little ritual Gardenarian, and heavily stressing the elements, nature and the Ancient Ones. They had a vast knowledge of and respect for the healing and magickal qualities of plants and stones, flowers, trees, elemental spirits, the little people, gnomes and fairies.

Caledonii Tradition - Formally known as the Hecatine Tradition, this denomination of the Craft is Scottish in origin, and still preserves the unique festivals of the Scots.

Ceremonial Witchcraft - Followers of this tradition uses a great deal of ceremonial magick in their practices. Detailed rituals with a flavor of Egyptian magick are sometimes a favorite, or they may use the Qabbalistic magick.

Dianic Tradition - First pinpointed by Margaret Murray in 1921 in "The WitchCult in Western Europe," this term appears to include a mixture of various traditions. However, thier prime focus in recent years is on the Goddess, and has been pegged as the "feminist" movement of the Craft.

Eclectic Witch - Basically, it indicates that the individual does not follow any particular tradition, denomination, sect, or magickal practice. They learn and study from many magickal systems and apply to themselves what appears to work best.

Gardnerian Tradition - Organized by Gerald Gardner in England in the 1950s. Gerald was one of the few people so determined that the Old Religion should not die that he took the risk of publicizing it through the media. Under all the hype, some truly believed he understood that the young needed the Craft as much as the Craft needed a new generation to survive.

Hereditary Witch - One who can trace the Craft through their family tree and who has been taught the Old Religion by a relative who was living at the same time. Channeling doesn't count. How far one has to go back on the family tree to meet the conditions of the first part of this definition is debatable. Family Trades (Another name for Hereditary Witches) occasionally adopt individuals into their dynasty. This decision is never a light one, and usually stems from the lack of offspring to carry on the line, or the high regard they hold for the person in question. The ceremony is intricate and important.

Kitchen Witch - This type is one who practices by hearth and home, dealing with the practical side of religion, magick, the earth and the elements. There are some who groan loudly at this type of terminology, viewing it as disregarding or simply inappropriate.

Pictish Witchcraft - Scottish Witchcraft that attunes itself to all aspects of nature: animal, vegetable and mineral. It is a Solitary form of the Craft and mainly magickal in nature with little religion.

Pow-Wow - Indigenous to South Central Pennsylvania. This is a system, not a religion, based on a 400 year old Elite German magick. Pow-Wow has deteriorated to a great degree into simple faith healing. Although Pow-Wow finds its roots in German Witchcraft, few practicing Pow-Wows today in Pennsylvania follow the Craft or even know the nature of its true birth.

Satanic Witch - One cannot be a Satanic Witch because Witches do not believe in Satan.

Seax-Wicca - Founded by Raymond Buckland in 1973. Although of Saxon basis, it was authored by Raymond himself. Without breaking his original Gardnerian Oath. Raymond Buckland's contribution to the Craft is a significant one. Not only did he develop a tradition that is more than acceptable to many individuals, he also has written a large volume of text books on different magickal aspects and practices of the Craft, thereby enhancing many lives in a positive direction.

Solitary Witch - One who practices alone, regardless of tradition, denomination or sect. A Solitary can also be an individual who has no desire to practice with or learn from a coven structure, but still may adhere to a specific tradition or sect through the teachings of another.

Strega Witches - Follows a tradition seated in Italy that began around 1353 with a woman called Aradia. Of all the traditional witches, this group appears to be the smallest in number in the U.S., however their teachings are beautiful and should not be missed.

Teutonic Witch - From ancient time the Teutons have been recognized as a group of people who speak the Germanic group of languages. Culturally, this included the English, Dutch, Icelandic, Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish peoples. This is also known as the Nordic Tradition.
BelleBayard
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 09, 2006 03:14
Wow... Very interesting arya_luver. I knew of the Gardnerian, but wasn't aware there were so many variations. There are also variations in Druidry. I think the main difference in all of them is personal choice in how one follows the path of spirituality. Currently, I follow the Order of Bards, Ovates, and Druids, but tend to mix a little Wicca into it as our group includes both Druids and Wiccans. It works for us.
arya_luver
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 09, 2006 05:55
WELL, I found out yesterday that wiccans allegedly don't consort with spirits. I have controlled two demons before, so I found that a bit interesting.:evil:
chreotha
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 09, 2006 06:24
Thank you Arya-luver! That was very helpful. I think I'll stay solitary for a while. I'm very happy learning on my own. It did help a lot to know the differences, now Ive got a better idea where I fit in to all of this.
Neenime
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 09, 2006 09:47
Mae govannen and Well-Met to all.

Would someone answer a question for me please? What is the correct pronunciation of the word athame ?

Is it "a -tha-MAY" or "A-thame" (rhymes with "came")?



[Edited on 9/6/2006 by Neenime]
“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
arya_luver
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 09, 2006 10:50
Yeah, I plan to stay solo for now, too. Except for my mentor, who is teaching me. Thank her for that list.
starofdunedain
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 09, 2006 12:05
thanks arya luver and chreotha that makes sence.

Question for Rivka: why did you send me 5 copies of the same email? :dizzy:
starofdunedain
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 09, 2006 12:09

Would someone answer a question for me please? What is the correct pronunciation of the word athame ?

Is it "a -tha-MAY" or "A-thame" (rhymes with "came")?


It's pronounced A-tha-MAY.

arya_luver
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 09, 2006 03:06
Cool. 100 posts. praise to the goddess!
Neenime
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 10, 2006 12:59
arya_luver Cool, thanks. I wondered about that.

Hey, Belle what a wonderful thing to do. I wish my hubby were so adventurous. Blessings to both of you!

Solstice approaches. I won't be able to celebrate much -will be on vacation at my mother-in-law's She has a yard the size of a postage-stamp and my very Christian bro-in-law will be visiting with his family.

On the other hand, I will be at an education confernce and June 21st is also National Aboriginal Peoples Day in Canada. There is sure to be a smudging or some similar blessing as part of the day's agenda. Will find a way to honour the time, even if inly on my heart.

“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
arya_luver
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 10, 2006 03:50
The new Sabbat (June 21, I think) Is going to be my first one that I observe, so I want to do something special. I think I'll use this Solomonistic circle: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0c/Circletriangle.gif

I plan to place a candle at each outer pentacle, and perhaps in the inner ones. I'm going to check with my mentor to see what she thinks.

vaya
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 10, 2006 05:11
Satanic Witch - One cannot be a Satanic Witch because Witches do not believe in Satan.


I actually spoke to a woman who was a witch and a priestess in the church of Satan, but was not a Satanist. The Church of Satan views lucifer as a bringer of light (which in the old pagan customs, he was) adn knowledge, not as a bad guy.
arya_luver
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 10, 2006 06:07
Yeah. That derives from the Biblical Lucifer, who was the non-fallen Satan, and the brightest of angels. (In the Bible)
arya_luver
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 10, 2006 06:20
Here's soething from a book:

Pre-initiatory Dedication Ritual
for the Proteus lineage and anyone else who wants to use it



Premise: "Every Witch is a Pagan; not every Pagan is a Witch."



There are many ways to honor Nature in our lives. For some, regular participation in Pagan circles is a way to stay attuned to seasonal rhythms, an enrichment and support for their real work in the world, a way of finding community. An artist, a doctor, a mother, a counselor - such people may find joy and sustenance in Pagan celebration eight times a year, or even at each Moon, but wish to pursue it no farther. They are the Earth Mother's children, as fully as are Her priests and priestesses. Their lives contribute as much as ours to the re-creation of Pagan community, the restoration of ecological sanity. A window is not opened by lifting one side.

Others of us find in active priesthood our life's work, our art form. We will dedicate a larger proportion of our time and energy to the religion itself. We are the producers of ritual and ceremony, not the consumers. Not because we are better, holier, or more devoted; but because this is where our talents, and our delight, seem to lie.

In our observation, people often spend some time exploring the community, reading, attending public circles or festivals, perhaps creating personal rituals or meditations for themselves. For some, this time of exploration fosters a hunger. They wish to study more formally, explore more systematically, aim for initiation into the priesthood of the Goddess.

In the old days, such people would have been initiated before being taught anything of importance. The need for secrecy was so dire that even the simplest information was withheld. Indeed, no public festivals or Pagan circles existed as places of exploration and discovery. We probably lost many potentially talented leaders by having no adequate channels; but however much we were diminished, we survived. The time for simple survival, thankfully, is past. Now is the time for re-seeding.

At the very end of the initiation, the candidate is declared to be "a Witch and a Priest/ess." We were not willing in Proteus to make this declaration before the Gods until the person had demonstrated to us their skill and capacity as a ritual leader. Nor were we willing to allow a candidate to make the commitment involved in accepting initiation until s/he had experienced ritual leadership. We ask for a minimum year and a day of study, and demonstration of competence by creating and conducting a Circle for our group. There is enough material publicly available now that we can easily provide this training without going into the oathbound rituals in our Book of Shadows.

This decision created its own problems. By withholding initiation for a year, we were leaving an equally important life passage unmarked - the point at which a person decides and formally begins to study for the priesthood. That moment should surely be celebrated! Moreover, there are commitments short of the initiatory oath that are appropriate at this point. What follows is our first approximation of a pre-initiatory dedication ritual. We more than welcome feedback from our family on this one. We plead for it!



Logistics:

In this model, one coven elder agrees to enter into an apprenticeship relationship with the candidate. While this would most typically be the coven leader of the opposite gender to the candidate's, there may be good reason to choose some other elder instead. The decision is made by four people: the candidate, the elder who will be primary teacher, and both coven leaders. We recommend consulting with all elders of the coven if at all feasible.

We strongly recommend giving the candidate a list of the questions s/he will be asked several days in advance, so s/he will know what commitments are required before entering the Circle. We also recommend encouraging the candidate to respond as fully as possible, rather than with a simple yes or no. Elegant language is less important at this moment than giving the candidate the opportunity to state her or his feelings and values within a Circle and before the people whose company s/he aspires to join - and the exercise in personal clarification that inheres in deciding what to say.

The ritual here presented can be elaborated, and we recommend it, as time and inclination allow. Some examples: in addition to the ritual welcome, each coven member might offer the candidate some advice, or a blessing, or some personal statement about Witchcraft and the process of learning involved. Small gifts - a crystal, a homemade dream pillow - might be offered as talismans for the voyage of discovery now beginning. Cakes and wine, with toasts to the new student, might follow.



Ritual:

[in Circle, with all coven members present, and teaching elder at altar, candidate steps to center carrying athame or other working tool] Candidate responds to each question asked by the Elder as s/he deems proper, unless otherwise noted.

Elder (candidate's name), what do you seek?

Candidate I seek to study Witchcraft. I ask you to teach me.

Elder

Do you understand that Witchcraft is the priesthood of the Old Gods and Old Ways of Nature, and that every Witch is a priestess or priest?

Do you understand that initiation into that priesthood will change your life forever, in ways that you cannot now foresee?

Do you understand what priesthood requires that, if you become a Witch, you serve the Lady and the Lord by serving Their People, to the fullest of your ability?

Knowing these things, do you want to study Witchcraft and its related arts until you know enough to decide whether this is truly your Path?

Do you understand that Witchcraft is one of many means to serve the Old Gods and awaken the Old Ways, and that even if this is not your way after all, you may learn and grow while you are here? Can you accept that the decision may be no?

Teaching what I love is a great joy. But I can only teach in joy if I know that what I love will be used and shared with care and honor. Before I am willing to teach you, there are three things and a fourth that you must promise to me:

Will you respect and protect the confidence of all who you meet in the Circle and all who seek our aid, revealing their identities to no one except by their explicit permission?


Will you practice and teach the Craft for love alone, using this knowledge or teaching it only as a free gift, as I give it now to you, never accepting payment for it in money or goods or labor?

Will you promise never to use what I teach you to affect another person, avoiding not only baneful magic but all well-intentioned meddling, unless you have that person's explicit permission?

And if time brings fullness, as all here hope and expect it will, when you teach new students of your own, will you require these three pledges of them, along with their pledge to similarly bind their own students, so that all that spring from this line may be so pledged?



Elder [ONLY PROCEEDING IF ALL RESPONSES HAVE BEEN AFFIRMATIVE]

This being so, I consent to teach you. This is how I value my labor - that I will plant only good seed in good soil, to become fruit both sound and sweet. I will teach you, I will learn from you, I will learn with you. So we begin by exchanging our pledges. Place your hand on this athame and repeat after me

I, (name), here and now pledge
To you (name), to the Gods,
to all in this Circle
And, most truly, to myself,
That I will explore the Path called Witchcraft
Its lore and its symbols;
its rituals and its deeper meanings
Sharing with you my joy in discovery
and all my doubts and qualms.
Exploring all questions with open mind and heart.
Until I know surely whether or not
I am for the priesthood
and Witchcraft is for me
In token of this pledge I swear
on this tool of my power
To devote myself, from this moment on,
to learning the ways of Witchcraft

Elder [cover candidate's hand on tool with own hand]

And I make this pledge to you in return

For the lesser knowledge, which can be taught,
I will be your teacher.
For the greater knowledge, which must be discovered,
I will be your guide and your friend.
For the questions and perplexities of the path,
I will be your companion.
To answer when I may; or simply
to be silent as you seek your own answers
And when the time comes to choose
whether you will enter the priesthood,
I will share with you
all I have observed and thought.
And may the Gods prosper through our work together.

Know that although I am your primary teacher, this Circle is not made of the two of us alone. All here are dedicated to the Old Ways and each has unique knowledge. All of us learn from and with each other. You, too, bring the learning of a lifetime and the fresh insight of a beginner's questions. Together we are more than the simple sum of each of us alone. Go around the Circle, now, and accept each person's greetings.

Coveners [embrace candidate in turn and say]

I am _______. I am your friend. In time, I may be your sister (or brother).



Candidate [respond with same formula]

Elder [bless the athame or other working tool that candidate brought into Circle] I return this working tool to you with my blessing. Accept it, as I have accepted your pledge. Use it now, in your first ritual act.

Candidate: [go to each quarter and salute in any way s/he knows] Powers of the East (South, West, North) I, ______, call on you to witness my pledge and ask you to bless my time of exploration. [silent salute in East].

Elder -------, be welcome in the Circle! [embrace, almost certain to be followed by group hug].

All SO MOTE IT BE!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



STUDENT'S PLEDGE - alternative versions, from Coven Risingstar
#1

And the need cannot be denied,
for I am the Mother's child
And have come back to the forsaken ways

Teach me, Lady Queen*,
Child of our Mother,
The words of respect She would have us know,
The rituals by which we worship
She Who birthed us of Herself.
Guide me in the Way
That nurtures all and harms none
As I seek to regain that
which was lost so long ago.

And, finally,
walk beside me as Sister, (or Brother)
for we are both children of the Mother

#2

And the need cannot be denied'
for I am the Mother's child,
and have come back to the Ways of Old

Teach me, Lady Queen*,
Child of our Mother,
The words of respect She would have us know
The rituals by which we worship
She who birthed us out of Herself
Guide me as I seek what no other can teach me,
that which is mine but so long denied.

And, finally, walk beside me as Sister (or Brother)
We are both children of our Mother.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* I think I would substitute something like "Teach me, Elder Priest/ess" or, better yet, simply "Teach me, friend" for this line. - Judy

Next Post: Dedication Ritual

Blessed Be!
chreotha
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 10, 2006 10:13
WOW that was a lot to read. I've been observing the full moon cycle personally, since i can't seem to remember the sabbats. I believe the calender said the 11th is full moon, but its rainy and cold here so it looks like an indoor ritual for me. Ive tried reading about the sabbats but it is so easy for me to get them confused.
Good for you, arya-luver for having a mentor. I'm still too rebelious and I'd be so temped to simply ignore my teachings I would never accomplish anything. So I keep reading, and writting in my journal and discovering on my own. I am very happy this way. If someone kept telling me what to read or what to learn I'd quit.
arya_luver
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Post RE: The Wiccan/Pagan potluck thread
on: June 10, 2006 10:44
Woah, it is tomorrow! Darn, I won't be able to consult me mentor. So I guess I'll be doing it at around 2:00am tommorrow. Anyone have any good spells I can recite???
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