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Nevthónîel
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Post I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 21, 2003 06:58
(moved from CF)

Arwen, she's everywhere. Look at the poster for TTT. How many minutes is she in the movie? Not many. And she's there. What happened to Merry and Pippin? Théoden? I don't like that. Glorfindel? Oh, I forgot. The guys must have something too drool over and to do a love story - good idea! Or maybe not..No.

[Edited on 21/5/2003 by Yano]
Celebroch
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 21, 2003 09:56
Even if Arwen stole Glorfindel's part, she was in the story, which I think justifies her more frequent apperences. And as to her being on TTT poster, I can gurantee that she'll be seen more in the Extended Edition. I thought that PJ was right to put her into FOTR because she actually did have a large effect in the story, although you don't see it if you read the main part of the book. Her story is in the appendicies. I guess that they wanted to put the scene between Arwen and Aragorn in the first movie so that there would be some kissy suff (:dizzy, but for the last movie there is the Faramir-eowyn thing going on.
ShyHobbit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 21, 2003 02:01
I've learned to deal with the expanded role of Arwen, I even enjoy it to some extent I just try to look at the books and movies as two different works, which they are. While her role is different than reads in the actual books, much of the content of scenes in The Two Towers (film) are straight from the appendixes In today's world, I don't think the original story would be accepted quite so warmly,it would be seen as "Aragorn helps save world, becomes king of men, takes trophy wife that hasn't made an appearance till the last bit of the film". Non book readers would be like "Wha?? Where did she come from?"

Hope I made sense!
TheBaggins
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 21, 2003 02:59
Perfect sense ShyHobbit!

For my part, I am inclined to accept the role Awren played for the reasons already raised in this forum. I would consider my self a purist for the book, and sure, it would have been great to have the movie follow the book explicitly, but it may not have translated that well on screen.

As for Liv Tyler, I confess that I am now a mad fan of the character she created and put up there with Natalie Portman and Carrie Fischer for heroins in Sci-Fi/Fantasy blockbusters!.
Ainulindale
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 21, 2003 04:32
I quite like how PJ brought in more of Arwen and Liv into the movies, she's a great actress and it doesn't change the series of events from the book, not to mention she doesn't look bad at all!

Posters are about promotion, abnd publicity, and one has to admit that Liv carries it off very well.

I agree with ShyHobbit. We might see Arwen as 'stealing' Glorfindel's part, or taking screen time away from Merry and Pippin, but there would be a lot less meaning to Aragorn's choices if Arwen was not in the picture.
Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 21, 2003 07:31
I didn't like her at first, but now I do. I don't like the whole 'Aragorn gives the evenstar back'-thing, but Liv is great: she is a good actress. As for her being omnipresent: you have to give the boys something to drool over
Lady-Arwen
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 22, 2003 12:47
Oh here's an interesting irony, when I loaded this thread the Random Block was Glorfindel

Well, anyone who knows me *blush* proabably knows that I don't mind Arwen and never really did. I think there are just few enough girls that it justified adding her in, Glorfindel was not needed but Arwen served a purpose. Plus I agree that Liv is a fabulous actress and she went to great effort to transform herself in the elven maid she was meant to be.

I think a lot of people have ceased to hate her so much, even as they have started forgiving poor Faramir

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Tanta
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 22, 2003 06:00
I think Arwen's character is great and the way they extended it - i miss Glorfindel, but i think [/i]maybe[i] it worked better with Arwen at the ford than Glorfy, i mean arwen gets very sad and emotional and huggy with Frodo when he gets really sick when theyve crossed the ford. that might not have worked with GLorfy in the film. Also I love the chemistry between Arwen and Aragorn when we first see her and she comes to rescue Frodo. (where did she come from by the way - i mean when she got there it looked like she immediately knew Frodo was sick - who told her). BUT, i do feel it is unfair that she is on so many posters and i think there should be Merry and Pippin on them instead, especially as they are MAIN characters and wasn't intended to be anywhere near a main character when Tolkien wrote the books.
Whoah im worn out now.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 22, 2003 06:38
This is some kind of Love Arwen and hate Eowyn world isn`t it? What does poor little Arwen give to that movie? Ooooooh luv object for Aragorn. Rescue Frodo??? That was Glorfindel`s job thank you. The reason why I do not think that J.R.R. Tolkien did not put that in is because he did not want romance. Or maybe his target group would not want to read about it. But all I am pointing out is that if you gave the rest of the characters some time and take up her spots maybe we would see less of Strider pining over his woman ...however silently.
Lady-Arwen
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 22, 2003 10:59
This is some kind of Love Arwen and hate Eowyn world isn`t it?


Not necessarily OnlyASheildmaiden. And in fact sometimes it's the other way around and people love Eowyn and hate Arwen. It usually depends on which thread you are visiting

If people seem to favor Arwen over Eowyn it is probably because she hasn't had too much of a character yet. Arwen has had two movies to develop and I know that with some people at least, Arwen was much preferred in Two Towers over Fellowship. I think Eowyn will gain more fans in RoTK, so I wouldn't worry.

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idril_celeb
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 22, 2003 11:49
i think that Arwen its too important in the movie! she doesn't appear too much in the book! i didn't like her at first, especially when she stole the part of glorfindel and when she appears in ttt, but nevermind!!!!!
Roheryn
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 22, 2003 01:22
Arwen's relationship with Aragorn is critical to his decision making. She encourages him to accept his role. In order to show her importance to him and to the story PJ had to expand her role in the films. Without doing so, all of those who saw the films, who had not bothered to read the books, and especially the appendices to the books, would have no idea of who she was or why she was so important to Aragorn.

It would have been nice of course to see Glorfindel in the films, but there is only so much you can put into an acceptable length of film time.

As for Liv, I think she did an excellent job of bringing Arwen to the screen.

Aragorn + Arwen; Faramir + Eowyn. Accept it, kiddies, that's how Tolkein wanted it after all.
Areleniel
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 22, 2003 04:37
I don't mind Arwen's expanded role in the least, cinematically I think that had to be done plus it did add to the story, with inspiration for Aragorn and all. However at the same time, and I'm probably one of maybe two people in the world that thinks this, but I am just not fond of Liv Tyler's acting far as being Arwen is concerned. She's ok at times, but sometimes she just bugs me. I'm not really sure why other than something with her voice at times that just grates on my nerves. I do think she doesn't need so much poster space though, not to mention, personally, I believe in TTT there was more kissing than really needed to be there. Then again, I'm not a huge fan of romance in movies to begin with either. That's my opinion anyway.
Frodo_007
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 22, 2003 08:12
i love Arwen's role in the film and Liv Tyler is one of my fave actresses!i think shes so beautiful and perfect for the role of Arwen
Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 23, 2003 01:54
What does poor little Arwen give to that movie? Ooooooh luv object for Aragorn. Rescue Frodo??? That was Glorfindel`s job thank you. ~OnlyAShielmaiden


Arwen gives a lot to the movie: tranquility for one (her scenes are slow and timeless, in a peaceful way), beauty for another, love ànd femininity...

I hear a lot of girls and ladies on this forum complain that women are looked down one (and don't get enough attention from Tolkien), countering it with: but I am strong, and I can even wield a sword. Yeay Éowyn.

But Éowyn isn't such a yeay character at all, she's a tormented, lonely woman: she's someone psychologists would love to have on their couch! She is caged, she is alone, she is loveless, she has an ambition but it's only a substitute... and in the end she goes to war for one sole reason: to die. She's suicidal. Éowyn is a wonderful character, and she's a flesh and blood woman, but no way in hell is PJ going to portray her as Tolkien did. He's already altered her lines and scenes drastically, and if I'm not mistaken he's going to do it in ROTK too... because Éowyn is too heavy, she's too hard to deal with for a movie-audience who's just looking for a bit of fun.

Galadriel isn't a happy happy joy joy Elf either: she's divided, she has suffered, she's weary...

If you read the Appendixes carefully, and you analyse Aragorn's character and his development, his motivations; you'll find that Arwen is crucial to large parts of the story (As Roheryn said) She is a positive figure, a driving force. She has strength without wielding a sword, wisdom, and a joy for life. She doesn't care too much about living eternally, she cares for the here and now. A here and now she wills to be filled with love.

Arwen was added for a great number of reasons, all summed up above by people who say it better than me, but not because PJ needed a lass on a horse. She's a character, one that Tolkien created, and she's as much a part of his world as Éowyn is.

So I don't see the need for any Arwen bashing at all. As far as I know, there's no Éowyn bashing?
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 23, 2003 02:02
arwens extended role was mostly ok and kept pretty in character. however i have to agree with the posters and merchandising thing- there are so many more character that it seems bizzare to concentrate on her so much.... plus i have a problem with liv tyler playing arwen- i dont think she looks the part at all. but thats just me.

i havea feeling that there will be alot more emphasis on eowyn for RotK
Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 23, 2003 02:40
yeah the posters okay... I'm with you there K... but then again: you gotta think of the men too...
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 23, 2003 02:49
you know ive never yet met a guy who likes lotr because of the women in it - or one who feels ashamed to have a cool and manly one of aragorn on his wall
Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 23, 2003 04:13
okay, so maybe for the lesbians

no, all kidding aside, Arwen adds something of beauty to the movie no other character does
Lady-Arwen
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 23, 2003 06:17
plus i have a problem with liv tyler playing arwen- i dont think she looks the part at all.



....umn....well...that's...interesting...since she had all of two lines and two apperences in the book I don't exactly understand how should COULDN'T fit the part. But I suppose that's your own oppinion.

you know ive never yet met a guy who likes lotr because of the women in it


Maybe that's not the soul reason, but go over to the gallery Arwen section and it won't take long to find guys who like having a beautiful girl in the movie.

In the end I agree Figwit, Arwen added something unique to the story in being purely beautiful, and remember that she IS a subplot, so just take that for what it is and she is much easier to bear

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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 24, 2003 06:06
I think Arwen is a neat character and when i read the books i was sad about Glorfindel but I think Liv is a great actress and she portrays her part very and for those who disagree i understand differences of taste

NAMARIE
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 24, 2003 06:17
I don't think Liv is that bad in the film 'cos she speaks with a low voice and not her own annoying one.!:angry::evil:

[Edited on 24/5/2003 by mrs_bloom/wood]
kingurl
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 24, 2003 11:30
Thank you Nev!!!!! i had a thread like this in the casting forum, but yours got moved here first, so here goes!!

Why did they have to give her Glorfindel's part?? I like Glorfindel!!:angry: And must they hurl Aragorn over a cliff just so Arwen can kiss him?? And what's with her sounding asthmatic?? DOWN WITH ARWEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 25, 2003 01:44
well, kingurl, let's look at your arguments systematically:

1) Why did they give her Glorfindel's part?
Well, since Frodo was disabled from rescueing himself (for no obvious reason, which damages his character), someone had to save him. That someone had to be relevant to the story. Now Glorfindel (who, in the books, lends Frodo his horse and waves a burning stick around) was not relevant. Arwen on the other hand, was, because PJ had decided in an early stage that he wanted to expand the women's parts.

Aragorn (in the books) has a goal in life: becoming king. His motives: it's his duty ànd it's what it'll take to get Arwen. Now, this is crucial, don't you think, to understand the character of Aragorn, even in the extremely altered version PJ presents us with.

And of course: Glorfindel would've just been another blonde Elf looking sus on a horse; and Arwen is... Well, let's face it: Arwen is a babe.

2)Must they hurl Aragorn over a cliff just so Arwen can kiss him?
No, of course not! My guess is PJ added this scene for a number of reasons.
1) Those who haven't read the book, will be panicking about whether he'll die or not.
2) The mushy stuff with Legolas... for some odd reason people seem to like that.
3) Sepdet has this incredible theory about fanfiction, ask her.

I hated that part, but then again I'm a book purist, so I would.
Now, as for Arwen, I guess that was a way to show that
a) Aragorn was delirious
b) Arwen is the Evenstar of her people (which PJ clearly misinterpreted as giving her some kind of healing power)
c) create a joke to let off the tension: was it Arwen that kissed him, or was it... Brego, the Intelligent and Healing Horse?

3) What's with her sounding asthmatic?
Oh come on, have you heard Liv's real voice?! No way in hell a woman with that kind of voice would be considered 'ageless', 'wise' or 'ethereal'.
It's just an acting trick, she dropped her voice by an octave, just like Gary Oldman did in Bram Stoker's Dracula


So, I don't think 'Down with Arwen' is the proper conclusion here...

I know I know, des gouts et des couleurs... I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there's not liking something because it really totally and utterly wrecks the story and not liking something because you don't like it - for whatever reasons that is...
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 25, 2003 02:34
....umn....well...that's...interesting...since she had all of two lines and two apperences in the book I don't exactly understand how should COULDN'T fit the part. But I suppose that's your own oppinion


hmmm well everyone has thier own mental images of the characters... i mean you cant read a book and not picture the character in your mind. liv tyler is not somene who looks like an elf in my opinion uh her cheekbones arent very defined and her lips are too puffy.... LOL of course shes gorgeous but still doesnt look like an elf to me.. despite the old pointy ears
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 25, 2003 02:40
everyone has their own mental images of the characters... i mean you cant read a book and not picture the character in your mind. liv tyler is not somene who looks like an elf in my opinion uh her cheekbones arent very defined and her lips are too puffy.... LOL of course shes gorgeous but still doesnt look like an elf to me.. despite the old pointy ears



Lol k ... well... she does it for me. Of course Galads is the archetype Elf (she's just perfect in my opinion) and Arwen's not even close to that.

Somehow, I think that was the whole point though: Galadriel is more aloof, like she's made of starlight. She looks wise and ageless and old the things an Elf should look. But then again: she has to look like a queen, like a terribly powerful creature.

But Arwen's role is slightly different: she has to look like an Elf, yes, but also like someone's lover. So she needs to be less aloof and more... well, more of a physical, sensual being. To put it bluntly: you could imagine Arwen having sex, but Galadriel, that's a whole different thing... at least, in my opinion.

But then again, most people think Legolas is sooooo hot, and personally, I couldn't even warm a cup of tea with those looks so...
kingurl
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 25, 2003 07:25
Thank you Figwit for that analysis, HOWEVER I still hold strongly to my opinion.

Oh well. To each his own!
Lady-Arwen
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 25, 2003 01:06
liv tyler is not somene who looks like an elf in my opinion uh her cheekbones arent very defined and her lips are too puffy


*snorts into her soda* Oh deary me! ;D You should really write a book k! You'd write facinating character description

But then again, most people think Legolas is sooooo hot, and personally, I couldn't even warm a cup of tea with those looks so...


*laughs* I have LONG since given up on your oppinion of Legolas, Figwit I like Legolas because I think Orlando is an excellent actor, I like his potrayal of elves, he's a sympathetic character throughout, he's a great friend to Aragorn...and yes Gimli, and I have about 12 Mellon Chronicles stories by Cassia and Siobahn backing his character.

But as kingurl said To each his own! (or her as the case may be)

~*~Lady Arwen
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: June 13, 2003 09:46
I think the first reason that Arwen is at the Movie Poster etc, Is that she's one of the few woman in the movie... So she's special (no matter what, she's special!) Well, I think that's the reason.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: June 13, 2003 09:54
As for her being omnipresent: you have to give the boys something to drool over

Yeah, I mean we have Legolas, Frodo, Faramir, Eomer, it's endless! The guys need at least one 'hot chick' or they won't come! We females can't do all the drooling! :drool::blush:

And besides, I have gotten used to her. The only thing I didn't like was her 'rescue' made Frodo seem so weak. Don't get me going on THAT again... Figgy knows what I'm talking about!

[Edited on 14/6/2003 by Eowyn_Touched-By-Frost]
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: June 14, 2003 06:11
I agree with Roheryn and Figwit about Arwen's role in the movies. I'm glad there was more of her and I think Liv did a fine job playing her.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: June 14, 2003 06:42
her lips are too puffy


lol i think hers look like mine when i eat curry (they swell)

i dont mind her. i think it was a good idea to have her in the films because otherwise people wouldnt get the whole her-and-aragorn thing. i didnt get it the first time i read the book, i thought hed end up with eowyn. it was only once id read the appendix i figured out all the sublte hints in the rest of book.

meh. she did alright
Steorra
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: June 15, 2003 01:18
I used to hate her, but now I realize that I actually have nothing against her, book-Arwen OR movie-Arwen. But I can't really say that I like Liv Tyler because I don't know her or anything. Actually, I'm not that fond of a lot of movie stars, so don't mind me.

I wish Glorfindel was in the movie, but like it's been stated before, Arwen taking his part was more useful to the film-- going deeper into the concept of the Aragorn/Arwen lovie-doviness, saving movie time, esuring more "woman power" (GO WOMEN!), etc.

PJ included her a lot in the movies for a reason. Even though I DO think that her publicity is a tad overboard. (I mean, Arwen action figures, but no Haldir action figures? )

Overall, I don't mind Arwen. And I certainly don't think that "she stole Aragorn from Eowyn" (I don't think anyone in this thread said that, but I've heard it around). Just me opinion.

Sorry if I offended anyone, because I didn't mean to.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: June 15, 2003 10:07
I don't really hate Arwen/Liv, but I hate the fact that the producers/writers actually added too much Arwen scenes and replaced Glorfindel with her. And I hate the fact that Arwen's face was 10x larger than most of the more important characters who were at the bottom of the TT poster. They could've replaced her face with the Rohirrim, Faramir or Merry and Pippin.

But I think she did well, even though it sucked that they had too much of her in the movies.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: June 16, 2003 03:28
I like Arwen!! Glorfindel had just a minor role after all, so that would probably spared PJ to search for another actor! lol

Besides, I don't really think you should go on about Arwen's looks, she's a beautiful woman, but even if she weren't, there are ugly people in this world too, so there must be ugly elves too! lol
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