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Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 14, 2004 11:01
Granted she's the female counterpart to Legolas...something for the guy fans other than all the action/adventure. Jackson likely wanted to attract both audiances...which he did. Casting Liv as Arwen was meant to attract the male viewers. I liked Eowyn myself...i go for blondes. But that's just my own personal taste. Someone else might like brunettes.


I'm inclined to disagree: Legolas was turned into a warrior rather than the Merry Background Elf, because Jackson was afraid he would turn out too fairy-like. That so many girls drooled over him the past three years is more like a side-effect than seriously intended.

Arwen's larger part in the story has to do with wanting there to be a real, motivated lovestory, and not just Aragorn giving Éowyn the cold shoulder for no apparant reason, then marry this Elf chick everyone forgot about.
The Appendixes were there, and they used them.

As far as I know, girls go to movie theatres to see actors, boys go to movie theatres to see action. If there's plenty of babes, maybe they'll go too - but not just to see Liv. That's what video's are for.
Or maybe I just know the wrong sort of bloke.


I guess liking/disliking a certain character is a matter of opinion that should be respected since this *is* after all an opinion forum where people post their opinions on a certain character they like or dislike.....Savvy?


I agree to some extent, but you claimed Arwen was a 'flat character'. That is not a matter of opinion, but something that can and should be argumented. Arwen is not a flat character at all, and if you can't be persuaded with everything written in this thread, then I'd like you to give me some good reasons why.

I'm sorry if I come across as a little obsessed about this but I've been on these boards for almost two years and this is like the 25th time someone brings this up - it sort of gets on my nerves.
Celebrianna
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 15, 2004 11:54
Arwen is not a flat character at all, and if you can't be persuaded with everything written in this thread, then I'd like you to give me some good reasons why.


Good idea Figwit. Hopefully this person will list his/her reasons. I would certainly love to hear why Arwen's character was flat. I look forward to reading them.
ktktkt
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 15, 2004 12:49
I know a lot of people dont like arwen
I think that the reason she is on the poster for TTT is that it is designed to advertise the film, and appeal to as many people as possible. Also female roles in the film are very limited and to give the film a more feminine side then you need to put the female characters out there more.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 29, 2004 09:03
Opening point? I don't think anyone other than Liv Tyler could carrry off Arwen quite as well. I could truly believe that Elves would call her the Evenstar. She's lovely, as well as strong, in her own way. I can't think of any actress who would do a better job, and if you can I would love to hear your opinions.

Eowyn and Arwen are difficult to compare, whether you are comparing within the context of the books or the films. Not only are they raised in completely different environments, they are even of different species. I would even argue that Eowyn is not as strong as Arwen. Eowyn seeks death as a release, whereas Arwen does not seek death, but recieves it only indirectly, as a consequence of loving Aragorn.
Both characters, in my opinion remain true to Tolkien's vision in the film. Particularly poignent is a shot in ROTK of Eowyn as Dernhelm, screaming "Death!". Granted all of the Rohirrim are doing so, but Eowyn means it. And I would agree that her redemption in the eyes of the reader/veiwer comes when she defends her uncle. Arwen has no need of such a redemption, because the reader/veiwer either sympathizes with her or (in the case of the books) has forgotten about her. I think many of Arwen's scenes in the Two Towers were to prevent the audience from forgetting her, the motivation for many of Aragorn's actions. If you look at it that way, it is easy to justify giving Liv her ten minutes of screen time.

Regarding the ad poster. Yes, Arwen is featured fairly prominently. But so are Frodo, Sam, Aragorn, Eowyn, Eomer, Merry,and Pippin, plus a few more. Basically, much of the cast. It's an advert. They have to attract people. And you have to admit, Liv Tyler's attractive. About attracting the guys? I can't think of a single one of my guy friends who raved about Liv. They were all to busy going "You know it's got the longest battle sequence in the history of movies?"

To me, Arwen's extended role in the LotR films is entirely justified, mostly because Peter Jackson wasn't going to take a twenty-minute break from the action of the story of the Ring to go back in time and tell the story of Aragorn and Arwen in Lothlorien.

Eowyn22
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: March 03, 2004 12:53
I know!!!!I don't really like Arwen!!!!!She steals the "tough woman" title that belonged to Eowyn!!!!!!!!:angry:

Eowyn should be on the cover!!!!!!!

*Brace for attack of Liv Fans*



[Edited on 4/3/2004 by Eowyn22]
Pippins_Diamond
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: March 03, 2004 09:51
Ok, I have to say that I dont like Liv al that much! Im not jelous or anything (cause everyone says I look JUST like her).
I think shes a good person & everything with great acting, but its her voice that just Bugs the he double hocky sticks out of me! She in my oppinion sounds like shes 2, unless she makes her vocie low.

ok here r my facts:

1. In the book she WAS @ Helms Deep
2. In FOTR there was no romance between her and Arogon @ all!!!
&
3. She was a main reason that Arogan was fighting/king stuff

Me I dont like Livs voice, but this is what I think!
ANYONE else think the same?
Dream~Giver
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: March 04, 2004 02:29
She steals the "tough woman" title that belonged to Eowyn!!!!!!!!

There's no Éowyn-bashin, because a lot of people think (wrongly) that Éowyn's a modern kick-ass heroine.

First off Figwit, I agree with you. Second of all, Eowyn's isn't the fearless heroine you think she is. Yeah, she killed the Nazgul but she had to do it! I'm sure she must've been afraid while fighting that thing because I would be terrified if that thing came face to face with me. And you?
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: March 05, 2004 05:39
2. In FOTR there was no romance between her and Arogon @ all!!!


I think i have to disagree. Even if it wasn't mentioned in the Fellowship of the Ring book, keep in mind that all _three_ books is a collective work, meaning all _three_ are really one book. This includes the appendices. Tolkien knew what he was doing when he added it to the appendices, I'm fairly sure of that. I don't think there's anything wrong with Peter Jackson incorporating the appendices into the move rather than having a set of chunky flashbacks at the end (because we all know the 12 seperate endings were bad enough).
Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: March 05, 2004 11:35
1. In the book she WAS @ Helms Deep


No she wasn't.
EruanwenSaeriel
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: April 14, 2004 11:58
I agree with Figwit - though I haven't been a member for nearly as long, I get irritated at the Arwen bashing and really can't understand the animosity to that character - is it because no one read the books or the appendices thoroughly. Aragorn loves Arwen (not Eowyn even though some wish they had a "thing") and I can understand the writers' wish to beef up her character a bit - hey, they are in the business of selling theatre tickets you know.

And once again, I want to remind people that, in my humble opinion, she is the best speaker of Elvish in the movies (Viggo's a close second) - the Elvish rolls off her tongue as if she was born to it. And she really is lovely to look at particularly when she's with Aragorn - the love scenes were very touching.
2ndbreakfast
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: April 14, 2004 01:51
I guess I just don't like Liv Tyler. I dunno why, she's just fake. Her voice and mock cuteness... you could just cut her falaciousness with a knife. And if one more person tells me that I look like Arwen, I'm handing out lollipops and butt-whoopings. And I'm all outta lollipops (this means you, snoopy_hobbit). And I think that the love story, though not really mentioned much in the book, was quite lovely and necessary to a screenplay dealing with a lot of men and wars. Though Arwen complained too much. I just don't particularly care for Liv Tyler, as aforementioned, so, yeah, I know how you feel. :disco:
Celebrianna
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: April 14, 2004 01:53
Yeah....I agree with you too EruanwenSaeriel. I know everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion but I am getting so tired ***yawns*** of this Arwen bashing. Perhaps when some of her severe critics get rich they can redo LOTR.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: April 14, 2004 06:35
hrmm.. at least so far as the movies go, I must admit I prefer Arwen's character over Eowyn's. Sure it's cool to be able to do the rough-n-tough sword-swinging thing, but Eowyn's whole "I want honor and glory in battle" ideal just... ugh.

The movie Arwen however seems to me to strike just about the perfect balance of tough enough yet still the lovely fairy princess.



woodstar
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: April 15, 2004 06:25
And if one more person tells me that I look like Arwen, I'm handing out lollipops and butt-whoopings.


I would take that as quite a compliment, personally. Though you might not like Liv Tyler's personality or her on-screen persona, she is still quite a lovely woman. And, plus to be told you look like Arwen, is really quite cool, despite who the actress is that portrayed her. Arwen was a gorgeous elf and if people think you have that elvish look about you, that is a compliment. Or that is how I would take it. I would take any compliment, no matter how they are given. . that tells you how desperate I am .
Dream~Giver
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: May 08, 2004 10:22
Am I the only one that realizes that Eowyn's part has ALSO been extended in the movie?
A lot of people are saying that Arwen's part is waaaay too long in the movie. Since when is ten minutes long? Also, why ain't I hearing anythin' about Eowyn's part? Because she kicks butt, so what? She's not Xena! And I'm really glad they put the romance between Aragorn and Arwen in the movies. It's one of the things that makes this movie so beautiful and powerful!
I just want to say, I have nothing against Eowyn or Miranda. Sorry if I caused some misunderstandment. But why is Liv always the target?
I know some of this may have to do with because, they didn't like the way she portrayed her or simply because she's not a favorite, and that's fine. Everyone has their opinion.
Everything else I think has to do with jealousy.
By the way, did Liv write the script? Did she? Did she?? Huh huh? She didn't right? So why is she being blamed for everything?? AND if you look into the credits, you'll see:
BASED on the book by J.R.R Tolkien. Notice how it says BASED. Does BASED mean EXACTLY from the book? No it doesn't.
half_elven_maiden
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: August 03, 2004 08:02
Ok, here's my two cents...alright it's five. :blush:

Im not a huge Arwen fan :rolleyes: but i can live with her extended part in the movies. I mean does any one here know that they were going to have her show up at helm's deep and fight there? Now thats just going too far!! :nono: :banghead:
But since when does she have the power to command the ford? :twitch: I think they could have at least let Elrond have that power.
Yet I must say that her role in the book was a bit pathetic. :yawn: :sleepy:
Celebrianna
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: August 03, 2004 09:52
Ok, here's my two cents...alright it's five. :blush:

Im not a huge Arwen fan :rolleyes: but i can live with her extended part in the movies. I mean does any one here know that they were going to have her show up at helm's deep and fight there? Now thats just going too far!! :nono: :banghead:
But since when does she have the power to command the ford? :twitch: I think they could have at least let Elrond have that power.
Yet I must say that her role in the book was a bit pathetic. :yawn: :sleepy:


Well, do we know for sure that she DOES NOT have that power? You might ask yourself that because I am certain you cannot answer in the affirmative.

In my humble opinion, I dont think that Tolkien wrote her as pathetic....In fact, I thought it was very nice of her to give Frodo, the ringbearer, her place on the ship to Valinor and it was very thoughtful of her to give him her necklace since she foresaw that he will be in pain from the wounds that he received.
Scatha
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: August 03, 2004 10:56
/slightly off topic

Miranda Otto is better looking and a better actress anyways.
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: August 04, 2004 01:07
Correction:
*you* think that Mirando Otto looks and acts better.

I like Liv/Arwen better.
Celebrianna
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: August 04, 2004 02:54
/slightly off topic

Miranda Otto is better looking and a better actress anyways.


Looks are subjective and if that is your preference, you are certainly entitled to it. But it certainly does not sway the opinion of those of us who thinks she is absolutely lovely and quite a beautiful person in character. And to add a little off note, like Halle Berry said recently, Beauty has never spared her one moment of grief or unhappiness in her entire life.



[Edited on 4/8/2004 by Celebrianna]
Lenaria_Birchbark
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: August 04, 2004 05:03
I personally think that Liv having a big role in the movie is awesome. I love Liv Tyler!!! She's my favorite actress. And, why shouldn't she have the power to control the river? She is Elronds' daughter. I'm not saying I don't like Miranda. She's awesome too. I like them both.
Scatha
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: August 04, 2004 06:27
I know it's just my opinion, and I don't mind Arwen, and I like Liv, I was just saying I'm a hopeless MO fanboy. However, I fail to see how some of you would have been ok with Arwen showing up at Helm's Deep...Aragorn would have gotten himself killed trying to get to her...not good.
Celebrianna
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: August 04, 2004 07:06
I know it's just my opinion, and I don't mind Arwen, and I like Liv, I was just saying I'm a hopeless MO fanboy. However, I fail to see how some of you would have been ok with Arwen showing up at Helm's Deep...Aragorn would have gotten himself killed trying to get to her...not good.


I do not even know why this discussion is being brought up about Helms Deep because I am certain that in both versions, there is no Arwen at Helms Deep. It never made the cut so it is a moot point.
Vale_Undomiel
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: August 04, 2004 09:03
i have just read some of the posts on this thread cos i have not much time at the moment so forgive me if i say something that has already been said...i love Arwen's character both in the films and in the books and i love the way Liv portrayed that character..i also dont agree with who said that Tolkien didnt put their story in the book becos he didnt want romance in the book,...in one of his letters he clearly said that he couldnt cos of tight schedule and other reasons which werent those...he highly valued that story and considered it important to the book...secondly, Arwen IS important cos she is one of hte two reasons why Aragorn decides to follow his destiny so it was the right decision to put her in the films...
actually the more i look around the more i see this is a love Eowyn - hate Arwen world and not the other way round but i couldnt care less...i like some aspects of Eowyn (well..one aspect:that she killed the nazgul,period!)but i dont think she is such a good character...but thats me and as we say here "the world is good cos its different" (=everyone can have their say!lol!)

(oh on a different note..i hate Liv's normal voice!Arwen's far more better!but she is ok...its just the voice...and i also like Miranda a lot...its just her character i cant stand!)
Dream~Giver
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: August 04, 2004 03:03
People seem to forget, if it weren't for Merry, Eowyn would've been killed by the WK.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: December 31, 2004 09:02
Talk about it. I mean, don't get me wrong, she's a good character, but...she DOES get a bitannoying throughout the films. In FOTR, she was in...like...what?....15-20 minutes of the film. In the book (FOTR) she only appeard once for about 5 seconds. Sensible? You decide....
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: December 31, 2004 09:28
Old thread.

Yes, Arwen does appear very few in the book. Yes, she was very important to Aragorn, far more than Éowyn ever would be in her dreams. No, it would not make sense if Aragorn primarily declined to be High King, but eventually fought for the Kingdom of Gondor.

No, I do not think Arwen is annoying; Éowyn is far more annoying to me.

It is only 15-20 minutes of the film, which is in the EE about 11 hours long... that is about 660 minutes. I do not think that 15-20 minutes is that much.
Ringbearer3000
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: December 31, 2004 09:47
I personally think that Liv having a big role in the movie is awesome. I love Liv Tyler!!! She's my favorite actress. And, why shouldn't she have the power to control the river? She is Elronds' daughter. I'm not saying I don't like Miranda. She's awesome too. I like them both.


On that argument, why should she have the power to control the river? In the book, it was the power of at least Elrond and Gandalf combined to create the flood AND the image of white horses. I see nothing in the book that suggests that Elrond's daughter has as much power as two of the most powerful beings in Middle-Earth. I wouldn't have moinded her "rescue" as much if they had let Frodo face the Nine. To be honest, that bugs me way more than Glorfinial not appearing. But that wasn't Liv's fault. (Glares at PJ and the screenwritiers0

The falling-off-cliff scene bugged me because it wasn't that necessary and kind of confusing. Does Arwen have telephatic powers to heal? Was Aragorn delirious? Was it suggesting that she kisess like a horse? Btw, they could have used that time for somthing else more important.

I absolutly hated the scene of Arwen leaving Middle-Earth. IMHO, it destroyed the concept of Arwen being a symbol of undying hope for me. Everyone always says that Arwen's character is strong because she never gave up hope. In the book...yes. In the movie...she DID give up hope when Elrond threw in her face everything she'd have to give up. I can't think of a single thing he told her in that conversation that she shouldn't already have known.In essesce, she lost hope and changed her mind when faced with what she would have to sacrifice. Does that seem very mentally strong and hopeful....um...no, not really.

Arwen's fate bound to the Ring? Since when??? To be honest, I saw no point in that. I think it would have been enough for Arwen to convince Elrond to reforge the sword and marry Aragorn in the end. Besides, she may die if the Ring isn't destroyed, but hey...if Sauron gets it back, they're all doomed. Not much of a happy ending for anyone, in fact, death may be a better fate then enslavement. JMHO

Those were the scenes that bugged me the most. Arwen was easily my least favorite "good" character.It's not Liv Tyler that bugs me, it's they way she was writtien. They justified that they didn't have to put a sword in Arwen's hand to make her strong. They WHY DID THEY??? Oh, and btw, Eowyn isn't just strong because she's an outstanding fighter. She's strong because she had to watch her kingdom fall, resist Wormtounge, watch everyone in her family leave her (Eomer was banished, Theoden was in living vegtable state) and still come out to be someone her people looked to for a source of strenght (it says that directly in the book. Just watch the movies...the hint that her people love and depend on her is everywhere). Being able to fight is just a big plus.


Eruantalincë
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: January 01, 2005 02:06
So what's your point?
Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: January 01, 2005 05:24
Oh, and btw, Eowyn isn't just strong because she's an outstanding fighter. She's strong because she had to watch her kingdom fall, resist Wormtounge, watch everyone in her family leave her (Eomer was banished, Theoden was in living vegtable state) and still come out to be someone her people looked to for a source of strenght (it says that directly in the book. Just watch the movies...the hint that her people love and depend on her is everywhere). Being able to fight is just a big plus.


Arwen is not watching her kingdom fall, granted. She's watching her own people fade away, grown weary of the world, knowing full well that the only soothing they'll be offered is the chance to depart to Valinor - a chance she doesn't take, because she chooses love. She gains from this, granted, but it cannot have been easy for her. But throughout Aragorn's life, she remains a source of strength and hope - only despairing at the bitter end when she has nothing left but her own life spirit and the children she passed life onto.

The complications to her story in the movie make her character even more tragic: she has to fight both Aragorn and her father, in the end, to be able to make her own choice (a very feministic point of view!); she grows weak because of it (the malice of Sauron's darkness tainting her)...

Arwen's strength is born out of a positive source of love, hope, faith... while Éowyn's 'strength' is born from a negative source of fear, abandonment, rebellion and heartache...
Shire5
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: January 01, 2005 05:32
I am not a big fan of Arwen. Although I understand that she needed to be brought into the movies so the fans who haven't read the book see why aragorn married her instead of Eowyn, I don't think it is neccessary to put her on every single poster there is. She is on every trailer poster. I mean, on TTT poster, why does she need to be huge? Why isn't Sam that big on the poster? Why isn't Eowyn? There are certain characters who play major roles who aren't on the poster. Merry and Pippin convince the Ents to march upon Isengard. Why aren't they on the poster?

In the movies, I don't think she needed all screen time that PJ gave her. I mean, come on. U don't need Arwen and Aragorn kissing every fifteen minutes to develop her character.

Sorry, but I'm just not an Arwen...or Liv Tyler, fan.

~Shire5~
Celebrianna
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: January 01, 2005 06:25
You know, in the ROTK SE Appendices, there is a lovely summary of the character Arwen by commentators who seem to closely know the life of Tolkien and his works. I believe its in the title "J.R.R. Tolkien Legacy of Middle EArth."

One of the commentators said that one of the important things about Arwen is that she introduces the theme of death. I had to agree with her. When I read the other books that Tolkien wrote besides LOTR, there is that essential theme of death and the After Life. The fate of men and the fate of elves. That is where Arwen story lies. In her giving up her immortality to assume the fate of men....and the difficult choice she had to make...forsaking all of her kin to share Aragorn's fate. And while everyone seems to think that she gains by being Queen of Gondor, I cannot believe that her sorrow was not still great in forsaking her mother and the rest of her kin.

As to the argument that she was hardly in the book, this is what I say:

In the FOTR book, she was in Imladris and that is when we first became acquainted with her through Frodo's eyes. Frodo saw her speaking to Aragorn and was surpised. Now I would say that could translate to her scenes in Rivendell with Aragorn.

In TTT movie, with the alteration in the story line, it was necessary to show her scenes with her father. And yes, I love it, because here is where the theme of death is introduced. And while it may not be appreciated by some of you, I liked it because it reminded me of Tolkien's work in the histories. It distinguished one of the significant differences between elves and men.

In ROTK, she was definitely in the book in presence. When she sent to Aragorn the standard telling him that either their hope cometh now or all hope fails...something like that. With the changes in the movie script, her story needed to be concluded.

It is not up to me to judge which woman is stronger like most here are inclined to do. Fears are very specific to an individual. I, however, can relate to Arwen. When I think of her eternal separation (not even in the after life) from her family, that must have been difficult to endure. Not to mention that elves did not truly understand mortal death...its foreign to them. She accepted the fate of the unknown, for, who could say with certainty that men really existed beyond the confines of the world....I mean that from the point of view of an elf. And Tolkien obviously was trying to make a point when he said that one of the greatest sorrow among the Third Age is the parting between Arwen and Elrond. Perhaps that is what PJ tried to draw out. But I think the appreciation of Arwen's story depends on a person's deepened understanding or knowledge of the essence of Tolkien's world. That would mean going back to the Silmarillion where the fate of elves and men are laid out with such gravity.

[Edited on 1/1/2005 by Celebrianna]
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: January 01, 2005 08:48
In the movies, I don't think she needed all screen time that PJ gave her. I mean, come on. U don't need Arwen and Aragorn kissing every fifteen minutes to develop her character.
Liv Tyler fan or not... I am not sure if I saw the same movie as you. I cannot recall them kissing every fifteen minutes throughout the trilogy :dizzy: . Only the kiss on the bridge in Rivendel, the kiss in Arwen's room in Aragorn's dream (after the fall of the cliff) and the kiss at the coronation.

And for those who appear to count the "huge" screen time of Arwen: she is not that often to be seen. More like short flashbacks, which in actual seconds I guess do not take more than about 30 minutes at the most. On so many hours of film, especially the EE, I can hardly believe that her character got a major role.
Shire5
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: January 01, 2005 11:49
I stand corrected.

However, what really peeves me is that almost every single second Arwen's face is on the screen, she is crying. To me, she seems like a weaker character because of that.

[Edited on 1/1/2005 by Shire5]
Celebrianna
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: January 01, 2005 12:18
I stand corrected.

However, what really peeves me is that almost every single second Arwen's face is on the screen, she is crying. To me, she seems like a weaker character because of that.


This is laughable. Maybe someone else would like to respond to this...my patience has just abandonned me.
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