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Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: June 16, 2003 09:52
there are ugly people in this world too, so there must be ugly elves too! lol


what?! you mean that the Elves in these movie are... *gulp* pretty? *runs out to buy glasses*
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: June 17, 2003 12:04
I love Arwen, both in the movies and in the books. I find her character so refreshing; it's something different from the usual damsel in distress. She's a strong character, however you want to look at it.

I like Eowyn very much too; however the feisty defiant kick-butt girl is just too overdone. It's everywhere- name any recent movie and you'll find a beautiful girl who can fight and do all kinds of impressive stunts. Sure, it's 'girl power' etc and I like it, but showing strength of character (a female character) can be done without waving a sword or punching men, and Arwen's an example. Physical strength is nothing much. An unbalanced raving-mad handicapped lunatic can defeat baddies too. (Don't misread me- I'm not suggesting that Eowyn is!)

And before people start saying that they don't mind Arwen in the book, they just hate how PJ changed her role so much in the movies! Well- look at every single character, and honestly they're all changed, one may say there's too much Legolas in TTT,("blood has been spilt this night" isn't much better than "There is still hope") or Pippin isn't actually so stupid, or Frodo was whatever.... in my opinion Arwen's character in the movies was altered very little. Her being there greatly influences Aragorn's thoughts and actions, it wouldn't be possible to portray Aragorn well without showing more of her.

And some people do actually like Arwen!!! We all have our own opinions, and we should be tolerant of each others', but it's not pleasant to hear too much Arwen-bashing. If you don't like the character, why talk about her?
Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: June 17, 2003 09:31
And before people start saying that they don't mind Arwen in the book, they just hate how PJ changed her role so much in the movies! .... in my opinion Arwen's character in the movies was altered very little. ~ Ainulindale


I quite agree, Arwen's character wasn't altered nearly as much as some people would like to make it out to be.

I hear a lot of comments along the line of: Arwen wasn't a hero, she wouldn't run off on a horse... but in the Appendixes you get the feeling that Arwen is not only a rebel, but also someone who can very well tend to her own affairs. She travels back and forth between Lórien and Rivendell, and it is never said that she went with a host of armed Elves.

The fact that she came out more down to earth than she seemed in the books, is not necessarily against her character either. It is nowhere said that Arwen wasn't a real warm-blooded woman, and it is never said that she and Aragorn never kissed or touched eachother. Admit it, 30 years of chastity... that's a very long time, even for an immortal.

What I didn't like about the plotline was how Aragorn sort of dumps her (there's another thread about that, so I won't discuss it here) but *her* reaction to that was very Arwenish in my opinion: that look of defience combined with great hurt that Arwen gives him when he wants to return the Evenstar is just perfect.

Her leaving for the Grey Havens is nothing like her, not like I had imagined her, but I'm waiting for the EE to shed a light on that. I hope PJ doesn't dissolve their strong bond in the stormy waters of Aragorn's selfconciousness, because I always believed their love was one no one could break, not even they themselves.
Frodo_Ringbearer
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: July 28, 2003 10:30
sry guys, dont like Liv except for in Armageddon. I absolutely HATE the pics of her and Lij too.all my friend and both my cousins hate her too.and only one of them like lij,the rest likr orlando
Tinúmelë
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: September 17, 2003 05:23
At first I wasn't so keen on Arwen's extended role in the movies but I can sort of understand why PJ wanted her character to feature more. Firstly, she provides the love interest. Although Faramir and Eowyn get together this doesn't happen until the end of the third book, whereas the romance between Aragorn and Arwen is featured throughout the books/film.
Also, she is an important character, as she is what drives Aragorn and makes him keep going. And it shows the viewers why Aragorn was cold to Eowyn's feelings towards him. She adds a feminine touch to the film and I'm sure I'm not the only one who wished Arwen was featured in the books more. And in TTT it gives a chance for the filmmakers to show another side of the story, how the peril of Middle Earth affects ALL races not just the members of the Fellowship.
Although I did not really appreciate her 'stealing' Glorfindel's part and the Dream scene in TTT wasn't very much to my liking. But the scene between her and Elrond where he foresees her life after Aragorn's death is straight from the ROTK appendix.
I did not like the fact that it was ARWEN featured on TTT posters, as to me, the main female character from TTT will always be Eowyn and they changed this just because Liv was a big name. However, I think Liv portrayed Arwen as well as she could and I can't really think of anyone else who could have played the part.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: November 20, 2003 08:53
I never hated those parts, realy not!

Where would aragorn be after he fell of the cliffs and she should not be there?...

And I'm also sure she realy has a great role in this movie, tell me ; what's the world without people believing and hoping in true love? I couldn't live in that world, I'm for sure!!
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: November 22, 2003 11:58
It was quite some time ago when I wrote the first post in this thread. I've some to tell you, that I've changed my mind, I really enjoy watching Arwen and I now understand why PJ put her in the movies.

In TTT EE, well I haven't seen it, (it hasn't come to Sweden yet), there supposed to be some more things with Arwen and Aragorn that makes the story much better, and I think I will like Arwen by then. I'm looking forward to it very much. You people who have seen TTT EE, is this true?

After reading a lot on the net and of course being older it makes sense to me now. I will probably think of Arwen's scenes as the best ones. I'm really happy that I've changes my mind and I will now be able to enjoy the movie much more without getting irritated of Arwen.
Tinúmelë
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: November 30, 2003 01:25
This has just occurred to me. Liv's character/storyline is very close to Arwen in the books.

-The Tale Of Aragorn And Arwen states somewhere that when Aragorn was abroad she watched over him in thought. This could be an explanantion to the Dream Scene and also when Arwen appears, kisses him and says: "May the grace of the Valar protect you."

-The scene that takes place between Arwen and Elrond. Elrond quotes almost exactly from the Appendix and the vision is a way of showing Arwen's fate if it is not included in ROTK.

-Arwen gives the Evenstar to Aragorn. At first glance it's like: 'Wha...? She's supposed to give it to Frodo!' But in fact, the film takes from the books that she owns such a jewel and she DOES give something to Aragorn. She gives him (through Galadriel) the Elessar, the Elfstone. In Lothlorien, Galadriel says to Aragorn: "This stone I gave to Celebrian, my daughter and she to hers; and now it comes to you as a token of hope." Arwen giving Aragorn the Evenstar is just a slight adaptation of this.

That pretty much covers all of her scenes and so shows that they do take influence from the books. Tolkein himself said that The Tale Of Aragorn And Arwen was the most important in the Appendices. The only scene I can't excuse is the Ford Scene. It is completely out of her character. But I will stop now. The whole 'Arwen stole Glorfindel's part' thing is getting old.

So I hope all you Arwen haters out there will read this and not say rashly that her film character was completely altered. Because it wasn't.
diendrial
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: December 22, 2003 06:34
I don't see any reason to compare Arwen with Eowyn. They both are important people in the book and the movies. They were both portrayed beautifully and their difference in character added what was needed in the film.

Liv Tyler did an excellent job. She can show emotion so well from just simple gesters, the closing of her eyes...and the scene in ROTK where she (spoiler) sees her son is so beautifully done. She succeeded in bringing a sweetness, a grace and gentleness to an otherwise violent and tense film. Her character offers a balance in all three films and I commend Liv for what she has done here. No other character could have offered that balance, not even Galadriel. The moments with Arwen, as with all the characters, enriched the movies.
JMHO
diendrial
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: December 22, 2003 09:42
I don´t like Liv Tyler as Arwen, no.
She focus even more a character who is only beautiful nothing more, she´s not deep.
Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: December 22, 2003 09:50
I don´t like Liv Tyler as Arwen, no.
She focus even more a character who is only beautiful nothing more, she´s not deep.


Arwen is not just beautiful, as I tried to explain above: she's wise, faithful, warm... She believes in Aragorn even when he doesn't (in the movie at least), and she never gives up hope - even when he does she clings to their love.

Éowyn isn't deep: she's desperate.
losing_her_head
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: December 22, 2003 11:08
leme geuss. an aragorn fangirl maybe?
Roheryn
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: December 22, 2003 09:22
Once again I think Liv did a wonderful job as Arwen in ROTK. Her screen time was limited but every scene she was in was important and meaningful. Here at the end of it all I continue to think that Liv was a perfect choice for Arwen. She was both in her appearance and in her graciousness exactly as I pictured Arwen to be.

leme geuss. an aragorn fangirl maybe?

What do you mean? I guess Arwen was Aragorn's number one fangirl.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: December 23, 2003 01:16
I don´t like Liv Tyler as Arwen, no.
She focus even more a character who is only beautiful nothing more, she´s not deep.
Arwen is not just beautiful, as I tried to explain above: she's wise, faithful, warm... She believes in Aragorn even when he doesn't (in the movie at least), and she never gives up hope - even when he does she clings to their love.
Éowyn isn't deep: she's desperate.

I agree. Liv is just marvelous as Arwen, not just beautiful. She's only far mor subtle than the Éowyn character. Check out the little looks, the small gestures.She did a very fine job (well, Miranda Otto did a fine job too).
Joi
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: December 24, 2003 04:38
Arwen, she's everywhere. Look at the poster for TTT. How many minutes is she in the movie? Not many.

This is some kind of Love Arwen and hate Eowyn world isn`t it? What does poor little Arwen give to that movie? Ooooooh luv object for Aragorn. Rescue Frodo??? That was Glorfindel`s job thank you.

liv tyler is not somene who looks like an elf in my opinion uh her cheekbones arent very defined and her lips are too puffy


The above comments sound like the immature ramblings of irrationally jealous teenagers.

A lot of women shell out a fortune for Liv's gorgeous, 'puffy' lips. I'm an African-American woman with 'puffy' lips. If I didn't know better, I'd be ashamed of them. And why don't you like Liv? Do you know her personally? What has she done to you?

The Council has somewhat stricter rules than some other sites. We do not tolerate rude, or inflammatory remarks made against the characters, actors, or other site members. You may state your opinion, of course, but please always think about how others may perceive your words before posting in the forum or gallery.

Does this rule no longer apply?
Ringhilwen
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: December 24, 2003 11:08
No, it still applies, but please realize that there is a fine line between an opinion stated badly, and an inflamatory remark. Please understand that we try to catch bad remarks when we can, especially if they go on to incite larger arguments. It's not an easy job.

That said, if discussions in this thread and the Arwen vs. Eowyn thread keep going downhill, we'll shut both. There's absolutely no reason to use the word "hate" when refering to either character. That's right, they are CHARACTERS - made up people in a fictional world. Pj's vision was different than yours. Once you get several million dollars and a studio to back you so that you can make your own trilogy, we'll look forward to seeing your visions. Thank you.

-The Management
thranduilmirkwoodking
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 11, 2004 11:52
Well i might as well add in my two cents here on the issue. Arwen's role in the movie was greatly expanded-she's billed 3rd in the credits before Viggo Mortensen. I mean she was in for about a page in Fellowship and she returns to marry Aragorn and all that. I know every good movie has to have a love interest in it and LOTR is no exception. Still Liv's face is a little too....round for my liking. I liked Craig Parker as Haldir because he fit the role so well like Hugo Weaving as Elrond. Liv was just....lacking in some of her parts. her voice does seem kind of asthmatic.....and she does mess up some of her elvish. But that's because i have no life
The simple thing that she's billed before Viggo erks me in itself. Arwen just did nothing for me as a character.....though she did have her moments in the movie.
I still wouuld like to have seen Glorfindel. he was so happy.
aawen
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 11, 2004 01:46
i am really sad to hear all of this hate about the characters, i mean they are all tolikien's creations, i love arwen and you people should not say such mean things about liv tyler, she is a beautiful women the most beautiful in my own opion. and i am sure toikien would be very upset if he knew that people were saying things of this sort about his characters. he liked arwen or eles he would not have created her, and he also liked glorfindel and also eyowen. so get over it already.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 11, 2004 02:00
Um...aawen...nothing personal is meant here to anyone living or dead, I'm sure. And just because we love Tolkien and the books and/or movies, doesn't mean we have to love as automatons, unconditionally, everything having to do with the works. I don't see much hate here...just people's differeing opinions.

As for myself, I didn't mind the character of Arwen or her expanded role in the movies...I see the purpose behind it. What I didn't like was Liv Tyler's portrayal of her. She just didn't convince me for some reason...she didn't come across as "real". Most of the other characters, I believe in...not her as Arwen. And she needs to learn how to pronounce/enunciate Sindarin...it's a beautiful spoken language when not all garbled and run together.

If they'd have had someone else portray her, I wouldn't have minded anything about the character or the role.
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 11, 2004 02:38
Well, I still do not mind Liv as Arwen. And to be 'real' is a matter of vision, I think, for imo, she was very real. Maybe Legolas was less real than she was (I do not mind, for Legolas can make me drool :drool: ).
As someone else rightly said something about my remark on Galadriel's/Cate's pronouncation of a Quenya word: it was not her fault, she had to learn it. And if the teacher thought it was good enough, than one cannot 'blame' it on Liv.
The same goes for the 'billing-thing'. I think that is how NLC or PJ decided, and that she in person has nothing or at least very little to do with it.
About beauty: one can have a beautiful face/body, but when his/her mind is as bad as it can be, I think people would know, maybe feel. For me, beauty is a combination of physical and psychical elements and I think she combines those two very good. And I reallly like her voice. I am still looking for a sound file where she says the words about the reforging of Andúril.
Don_Palantir
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 11, 2004 04:07
There's absolutely no reason to use the word "hate" when refering to either character..


Yeap, but´ seems that doesn´ count in my case XDDDDDD.

XDDD Everything changed in t´movies what can we do!!!!

Well, I don´t mind Liv or someone else as Arwen, anyway she still takes so much time and attention other important characters doesn´ hav´ XD

[Edited on 12/2/2004 by Don_Palantir]
Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 11, 2004 10:55
I mean she was in for about a page in Fellowship and she returns to marry Aragorn and all that. (...) I still wouuld like to have seen Glorfindel. he was so happy.


Ahum. The irony of it huh? Arwen appears in a lot more pages than Glorfindel - not only that, but she is a more important character: Glorfindel lends Frodo his horse, and sits at the council speaking three or five lines.
Arwen doesn't do much in FOTR, agreed, but she ís a new Lúthien (a very important character for Tolkien), she is the motivation behind Aragorn's increasing eagerness to become King (he already was, but it helps a lot), she gives up her place on the ship to Frodo, she's the mother of Aragorn's children - thus reunited Eärendil's bloodline (important in the greater scheme of Tolkien's mythology)...

Jackson couldn't incorporate thís into the movie, so he chose to give her weight in other ways he could think of. Liv was very involved in creating Arwen - and she herself feels that once they returned to the Arwen from the appendixes, they got the hang of her.
I agree.

I liked Craig Parker as Haldir because he fit the role so well like Hugo Weaving as Elrond.


Personally I found Craig Parker awful, and I didn't believe in Elrond for one second - the only *real* Elf to me in the entire trilogy is Galadriel: she embodies the spirit of her people. The others are too slow, too grave and lack the endless joy and mirth of the Eldar - especially Legolas.


her voice does seem kind of asthmatic.....and she does mess up some of her elvish.


As Tolkien himself writes in one of his letters: he himself claims he only speaks it second-handly, and because he never 'heard' someone speak Sindarin or Quenya, he can't be sure how it should be pronounced.
What he meant to say with that, according to me, is that anyone who speaks Sin or Q will speak it like ancient Latin: a bit forced, a bit slow - or too hurried.

As far as I know, Arwen's Elvish lines sound wonderful. The flow of the words is there - and I adore her voice. She does seem breathless throughout the movie, but that's a good thing to me.
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 12, 2004 05:06
Hm, Figwit, isn't there a slight change that they might have given Legolas more 'funny' lines with Gimli, instead of the cheerful songs he sings in the books? I mean, he isn't that grave, at least not like Elrond. But I understand Elrond's graveness, for he has a lot on his mind at that time.
aawen
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 12, 2004 08:12
i just want to say this, everyone hates arwen for taking glorfindels place, but what about other people being left out and other lines being said by the wrong person? tom bombadil was left out but no you never hear anyone say any thing about him, and in ttt grima said to eoywn,so fair and yet so cold ect, when in fact gandolf says it to her which would make the line sound very different. and tree beard says some of tom bombadils lines in ttt eed, and gladriel is in the ttt too when she is not suppose to be, and she is in the scene in rotk, where she helps frodo to his feet. and that never happend in the book, but all you ever hear about is arwen took glorys place, i love all the characters i just spoke about but if anyone is going to say something about arwen being where she is not suppose to be then say it about other people to!
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 12, 2004 03:28
Perhaps i'm looking at this from the wrong stand point. I just have not liked Liv Tyler as an actress ever since Armagedden. She doesn't make a beleiveable performance in either that movie, LOTR or any other movie i've seen her in. Most actors seem to fit their characters- Johnny Depp, Viggo Mortensen, Sean Bean, etc. Liv just doesn't sell her performance but this is just my opinion of course. Other people might think that Liv was the best person to play Arwen. I don't see it that way for reasons i've stated preiviously. I do think that Jackson should've stayed more to the book but i understand that he had a span of about 13 weeks to film all three movies. He had his own inspiration and i am sure if any of us had filmed them, we would have done it a lot differently than he did. This was the way he put it together.
I do not mind that she had extended scenes but it still bugs me she's billed third in the credits.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 12, 2004 03:40
I am so happy to finally find a thread where the majority of individuals arent bashing Arwen/Liv. I absolutely love her as Arwen and I think Arwen is great. Many people prefer Eowyn but I really do not think there should be a comparison between the two. They are very different women whose differences are mainly due to the environment in which they were raised.

I have read some of the comments supporting the importance of Arwen and just wanted to add a few:

1. As we all know, Aragorn took the name Elessar after he completed his journey through the Paths of the Dead. Elessar means Elfstone. This leads me to believe that he did it in honor of Arwen since she gave him the Elfstone that Celebrimbor made for Galadriel who gave it to Celebrian who gave it to Arwen.

2. After the Dunedain and Arwen's twin brothers met Aragorn in the ROTK, Halbarad, one of the Dunedain, was holding a standard. It was the standard that Arwen made for Aragorn to unfurl when he arrived at Minas Tirith. Halbarad also relayed to Aragorn that Arwen said that the days are short and either their hope cometh or all hope is lost. After Aragorn heard this he looked to the North and was silent for the rest of the journey. Shortly after that he decided to take the Paths of the Dead. It can therefore be concluded that Arwen's message contributed to the decision to take the Paths of the Dead.

3. After the war, Aragorn was worried about his line. Therefore, he took counsel with Gandalf away from the city up in the mountains, confiding in him and looking for a sign. Aragorn told Gandalf that he needed a sign or he feared that his line will cease. That tells me that if Arwen did not marry him then he certainly was not going to marry anyoneelse because he told Gandalf who would his people look to for their Queen if his hopes arent realized.

Those points should be enough to support Arwen's role in the movie.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 13, 2004 09:17
I think all this Arwen-bashing has a little to do with jealousy. She's strong, gorgeous, immortal and in love with Aragorn. Lots of characters were changed, or replaced by someone else, but I think its cos Arwens an easy target sh gets all this bashing. I for one think she was perfect for the role.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 13, 2004 09:27
It used to not really bother me that much but it has started to lately! She wasn't that big at all in the books and in the movies PJ put her in WAY too much! And she kept on appearing in the movies at weird times that didn't exactly flow. That's just my opinion and what I think
thranduilmirkwoodking
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 13, 2004 10:42
I think all this Arwen-bashing has a little to do with jealousy


I am not jealous of Arwen. There were screenshots of Arwen at Helm's Deep. Now i know there were no elves at Helm's Deep period. There was no reason why she or any other elf would be there. But for some reason PJ thought it would be good until someone talked him into putting Legolas there. I'm not sure if he was there or not. I'm assuming since i havn't gotten that far yet.
Anyway to say someone is jealous when they're really not is just crossing a very fine line. I would have no reason to be jealous of someone that potrays a rather IMHO a flat character. Her Arwen has no personality whatsoever in some scenes. I know elves are supposed to be all noble. But at least Legolas shows some humor. Elrond shows emotion as well even Galadriel and Celeborn. Arwen....seems kind of...square to me.
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 13, 2004 01:02
She wasn't that big at all in the books ...
I think you are wrong with this. No, she did not appear a lot in the books, but there *is* an appendix of it. She *is* Aragorn's main reason, or at least a very big reason, to go on. Wether one likes it or hate it, it cannot and should not be denied.
But at least Legolas shows some humor. Elrond shows emotion as well even Galadriel and Celeborn. Arwen....seems kind of...square to me.
It is your opinion, I know. However, I do not agree with you. I think Celeborn is very flat in character (too bad, I think he might have done better, but that is not the issue here). Where Arwen gives at least subtle gestures of emotion, Celeborn gives... nothing to me.
Now i know there were no elves at Helm's Deep period. There was no reason why she or any other elf would be there. But for some reason PJ thought it would be good until someone talked him into putting Legolas there. I'm not sure if he was there or not. I'm assuming since i havn't gotten that far yet.
Actually, Legolas *was* in Helm's Deep, together with Aragorn and Gimli. And ofcourse Men. The other Elves were not, for they had to fight their own wars at their own borders. Maybe PJ put them in, because there was no screen time given for their wars and he at least wanted to get the Elves fighting put somewhere in the movies. Considering that, Helm's Deep is as good as any other place within the movie-story line.
Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 14, 2004 02:48
There were screenshots of Arwen at Helm's Deep. Now i know there were no elves at Helm's Deep period. There was no reason why she or any other elf would be there. But for some reason PJ thought it would be good until someone talked him into putting Legolas there. I'm not sure if he was there or not. I'm assuming since i havn't gotten that far yet.


I myself wouldn't have minded Arwen appearing at Helm's Dee anymore or any less than I minded the general Elves-thing. They were completely 'yuck'.
What always amazes me is that the same people who complain about Arwen's expanded part, often (not always, but often) defend the presence of Elves at the Deep.

I think on the whole, Tyler and Jackson made the right decesion to stick to the book - which they did. Her actions may differ, but her character doesn't.
Aragorn for instance does most of the things he does in the book (save of course falling off that cliff, yuck), but he was completely, totally, radically altered.

And it's my firm belief that in the end the good professor would have preferred Movie Arwen over Movie Aragorn.

Anyway to say someone is jealous when they're really not is just crossing a very fine line. I would have no reason to be jealous of someone that potrays a rather IMHO a flat character. Her Arwen has no personality whatsoever in some scenes. I know elves are supposed to be all noble. But at least Legolas shows some humor. Elrond shows emotion as well even Galadriel and Celeborn. Arwen....seems kind of...square to me.


That is a very dangerous thing to say. Arwen may not be funny, but why should she? I don't think Aragorn fell for her sense of humor!
She has to make a difficult choice - one she has to make, even if there was no Aragorn: to become mortal or to take the ship. Of course, there is Aragorn, and so she has a future even as a mortal - but then there's Elrond, her father, who tells her all these gloomy doomy stories.
It's choosing between breaking her father's heart, or her own.

In the end, it's the idea of a future (it's the idea of hope) that makes her return - I don't like that change, I believe Arwen would never have left. But that aside, it does show what this is about: Arwen believes in their love, in their future. Eldarion is proof of that love.

The Evenstar gives hope to the Elves, much like Estel or Aragorn gave hope to the Dúnedain. This idea is extremely important in the whole of Tolkien's mythology and history of Middle-earth - the parallel with Beren and Lúthien, the link to Eärendil the Mariner... all tales of great and noble sacrifices.

Arwen isn't a flat character: she's just not an easy character. She doesn't have any deeply emotional scenes where you see her tear her own hair out in grief. She's a real flesh and blood woman who - when she gets dumped - doesn't start crying or screaming but tries to keep her dignity.


Personally, I can't help but think that a lot of the criticism comes from her being a woman - and not just any woman, but a seemingly passive, old-fashioned woman. There's no Éowyn-bashin, because a lot of people think (wrongly) that Éowyn's a modern kick-ass heroine. Arwen's not.
Celebrianna
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 14, 2004 05:36
Personally, I can't help but think that a lot of the criticism comes from her being a woman - and not just any woman, but a seemingly passive, old-fashioned woman. There's no Éowyn-bashin, because a lot of people think (wrongly) that Éowyn's a modern kick-ass heroine. Arwen's not


Figwit, I totally agree with you. Everyone seems to conveniently forget that the only reason that Eowyn went to war is to get RENOWN and DEATH. For me, she redeemed herself when she defended Theoden. For once it was not ALL about her. I really dont think that people are being objective and this is all about constructive feedback. If I want kick-ass I would prefer to watch my dvds of XENA WARRIOR PRINCESS.

And for all those women out there who found Arwen to be weepy, do not pretend as if you are not sometimes moved to tears as well. It is our nature. If you deny it, perhaps you are yet too young in the world. When Aragorn told Arwen it was just a dream, she was very dignified and held it together well.

Her Arwen has no personality whatsoever in some scenes.


There is no pleasing you people. Already you complain about Arwen's much coveted 10 mins of the 3hours airtime, and now you are complaining about her possessing no character. How can you do justice to her character in 10 mins only of each movie. The 10 mins she was allowed showed her commitment to her choice while her father tries to dissuade her.

But at least Legolas shows some humor.


I think some of you need more education on Elves. From all the books I have read so far, I cannot recall them being humorous. Neither in the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales have I ever read them to possess a sense of humor. In fact, they seem to be grave, wise, thoughtful, and secretive. And is there any cause for Arwen to be humorous. Galadriel was grave too. There are moments, I am sure, when there is time to laugh, but they seem mostly serious. I can imagine one would be that way after living through so many ages and seeing so much. I can scarcely recall Legolas being humorous and if he was, then it obviously did not make an impression on me. I found him very ALOOF, as elves are around MEN.

In fact, it seemed as though Elves scorned men because of their weakness. Elrond told Gandalf that men are weak. Galadriel told Elrond, the ring works hard to get back into the hands of men, men who are so easily seduced by its power. Before King Elessar died Arwen thougth to herself that she scorned men for years and now that she had tasted mortality, she pitied them for the gift of their doom, which is death.

Can you see the difference now? Elves are so stern, serious, whatever you want to call it. They dont have the feelings of men. So quit with the Arwen possessing no humor thingy.
Figwit
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 14, 2004 06:04
Thanks Celebrianna, I'm glad to see someone else say what I'm saying.

As for the humor of the Elves - Legolas was funny in the books, in the same way that the Hobbits were - they were all a bit naieve, did some strange things (I go to find the sun!), had joy in life...

Galadriel and Elrond are very exceptional in Lord Of the Rings - they are wise and grave, carrying the burden of ages on their shoulders. They both suffered immensely, and witnessed a lot of suffering.

But not all Elves are like that: most of the Elves in Middle-earth around the time of the War of the Ring are Elves that never saw the light of Valinor (like Legolas) - they were born in Middle-earth, and they are 'young' and 'naive'. The movie has made all Elves into ethereal beings - but Tolkien never created them that way.
thranduilmirkwoodking
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 14, 2004 02:29
Maybe i was wrong about the whole humor thing i admit that. I even watched FOTR today and still Arwen seems flat like she has no character development. I don't mind her in the book. I think it's just my opinion of Liv Tyler in the part i don't agree with for some odd reason. Moreso to deal with that i hadn't pictured her as Arwen.
I know elves are supposed to be serious and aloof but i like to think they have moments where they have their humorous moments. But now that i think about it in the books the only elves that came across as friendly(and forgive me if not everything is correct here) were Legolas and Glorfindel. The rest were wary around the fellowship with good reason as they knew what they were dealing with. Arwen seems to me a naive child in the movies in some parts.

Granted she's the female counterpart to Legolas...something for the guy fans other than all the action/adventure. Jackson likely wanted to attract both audiances...which he did. Casting Liv as Arwen was meant to attract the male viewers. I liked Eowyn myself...i go for blondes. But that's just my own personal taste. Someone else might like brunettes.

I guess liking/disliking a certain character is a matter of opinion that should be respected since this *is* after all an opinion forum where people post their opinions on a certain character they like or dislike.....Savvy?
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: I don't like Arwen/Liv. Someone else?
on: February 14, 2004 03:22
I guess liking/disliking a certain character is a matter of opinion that should be respected since this *is* after all an opinion forum where people post their opinions on a certain character they like or dislike.....Savvy?
Oh, ofcourse anyone is entitled to have an own opinion. And to reject someone else's opinion.
I just think that dislike Arwen for being "flat charactered" is not true. Like Figwit and Celebrianna (and some others?) already stated: she isn't altered too much from the books. So if one thinks the movie-Arwen is "flat", then the book-Arwen should be too. Uhm, besides the (dis)like of Liv Tyler, ofcourse.
And the Elves you describe, they seem like the Elves from "The Hobbit" to me. Cheerful, a little nasty, playing games with mortal beings and having little understanding (and maybe even respect) for anything that is not Elvish or cannot give them profit. I think most Elves were merely astranged from Men and Dwarves in the 3rd Age. And they forgot how to deal with them. Besides, they knew what danger Frodo bore. If someone would walk into my small garden with let's say an H-bomb, well, I would not be too friendly too, I think.
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