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Wulf_Sternhammer
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Post Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 16, 2004 11:56
I recently asked this question in the realm and got some interesting responses, so I thought I would find out about the rest of the CoE community. So ........ Who's got them, who wants them, what do you have, or, what would you get, and why? Everyone can respond to this one even if you don't like them you can tell us your reasons for that too. So step right up and have your say, there are no wrong responses to this thread.


Live and love
Wulf.
echee
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 17, 2004 01:53
Hi Wulf
Ive got a dragon on my hip, its quite big but pretty cool.

if i was going to have another then it would probably be something celtish or elvish

echee x
ladyred
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 17, 2004 05:32
I don't have one but I would like to get one. I want a rose but I don't know where to put it. Maybe my upper arm or some place easy to hide it.
Some of my family members also have tattoos.
My mom has two tattoos: a small rose on her ankle and a little yellow flower in about the same place Elijah has his Elvish tattoo.
My younger brother has a tattoo on his calf that says SDMF. It stands for strentgh, determination, merciless, forever. It's some kind of Black Label Society thing.
My older sister has a Piglet tattoo on her thigh.
Mara
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 17, 2004 05:33
I have three! a band around my wrist, a pair of dice pinned to my shoulder blade and a martini glass on my upper arm...I had a really big las vegas phase that i'm not sure is over...lol...bizarre for a girl, i suppose :dizzy: but hey, i like bizarre! :love:
Grey_Pilgrim
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 17, 2004 06:49
Currently have 2. Both are Red Devil designs (Manchester United FC) on upper arms. I plan on getting another, something Manchester United related but in Sindarin. Have no idea what exactly yet though.
Legolisa_
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 17, 2004 11:17
I don't have a tattoo, and I never plan to get a tattoo. Not only for religious reasons, but also for the adult factor. All of the mature adults that I have heard talk about tattoos or talked to them about their tattoos have regretted getting them. They think that it shows how immature that they were when they were young. They say that they are terrible to try to hide, and can never be removed unless you feel like paying thousands and thousands of dollars. What's the point anyway? Just to have some ink thing under your skin?? Oh, and then there is the health factor. You can DIE from a disease that you can get when you get a tattoo. If you want a tattoo, then get some of those little "beauty spots" where they only last like a day. Or, you can get more permanent ones that last a week. Or, you can get a henna that lasts like two weeks. I've never done any more than the one day ones, and those are annoying at times. THINK THREE TIMES BEFORE YOU GET A TATTOO!
truegirl
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 17, 2004 02:16
All of the mature adults that I have heard talk about tattoos or talked to them about their tattoos have regretted getting them.
Really...hmm...
Well, I got my first tat at the ripe ol' age of 35 and I don't regret it one bit. I seriously considered it for several years before I finally found the one I wanted. I have one of Celtic knotwork iin a "V" formation on my lower back. It's outined in black with bright blue fill-in. I'm considering a larger back piece (length of my spine) of one of my favorite plants -- a moonflower vine. Or possibly more Celtic knotwork.
ElvenWytch
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 17, 2004 03:06
What's the point anyway? Just to have some ink thing under your skin?? Oh, and then there is the health factor. You can DIE from a disease that you can get when you get a tattoo. If you want a tattoo, then get some of those little "beauty spots" where they only last like a day. Or, you can get more permanent ones that last a week. Or, you can get a henna that lasts like two weeks. I've never done any more than the one day ones, and those are annoying at times. THINK THREE TIMES BEFORE YOU GET A TATTOO!


Umm... In my opinion, the point is to have something that expresses who you are inside on the outside. I guess that it really is a matter of personal expression, and a very personal choice. I know lots of "Older" people with tattoo's who don't regret them at all, because they say a lot about who they are or who they were.

I have a celtic knot tattoo on my upper arm, and I'm getting another one of my name in Sindarin and I really don't regret it at all. :love: :love:
I agree that you should definitely think before getting one, but if you make sure that your tattoo artist is certified; it's really no more risky than using a public restroom.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth.
Ithiahir
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 17, 2004 03:40
i would like "bond slave of the messiah" in hebrew on my back. i was thinking my forearm but it's kind of long so...back seems better. i'd also get the chinese for "angel", my nickname.
goldberry
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 17, 2004 03:43
I love tattoos!:love: I have 3 at the moment, Im nearly 40 and I dont regret having them at all, in fact I want more!

I have a fairy and a rose tattooed on the back of my right hip and I have a black Tribal piece on my right ankle.

My husband also has just the one tattoo on his right arm and he has never once regretted having it done either.

I started a thread like this in the Prancing Pony some time last year, probably still there some where

[Edited on 18/2/2004 by goldberry]
Wulf_Sternhammer
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 18, 2004 01:18
Well seems as though I started this thread, I guess I better spill all, on my own tattoos. I Got my first tattoo when I turned 18, and joined the navy. A Viking skull. Then over the next 4 years I got 5 more, until I ended up with 1 on each upper arm, skulls, 1 on each shoulder blade, skulls, and 1 on each outer lower leg, a sword, snake and skull on the left, and a sword, snake, amd eagle on the right. Now 20 years on and I still like each of them, they are a part of me, and a reminder of who I was when I got them.
Then when my wife and I were married in '96, I decided that to honour her heritage (she's a Scot) and as a token of my commitment, I had some Celtic knotwork tattooed on as my wedding band. Very permenant, but I'm only going to do this once. Since then every tattoo I have got has had deeper significance. My next one was a picture of a raven (my wife goes by that name) with the word raven spelt in Dwarven runes under it. This was on the left side of my chest, over my heart, to re-affirm my love for her. This was followed by a pentagram on the right side of my chest, a powerful symbol of life in the ancient Pagan and Heathen religions. I have been studying runes (the Elder Futhark) as a link with my own Scandinavian heritage, and have had 2 lots of rune work done, 1 on each upper arm below the others. The first, on my left arm, was over runes I carved (scarifacation) that hadn't worked properly. They are a bind-rune followed by three others for strength, wisdom, guidance, and protection. The second on my right arm is my grandfathers name, Olaf, which means both ancestor (he was Norwegian and could trace his family tree back over a thousand years to a great viking cheiftan), and Talisman, both of which are very relevent meanings as he was both of these to me. As my knowledge of the runes increases, I plan to get more runes tattooed on me. I'll keep you posted.

Live and love
Wulf.
Mithrodwen
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 18, 2004 07:07
I've designed the 2 tattoos that I'm going to have done next month ( a birthday present from my parents for my 19, which was in january). A man holding a moon, which will be on the bottom right hand side of my back and on my left shoulder will be a woman holding the sun, both will be done in black ink.
It has various different means for me that are all close to my heart.
- The dualism of life and my ability to see it
- The beauty of nature
- Tolkien 'of the sun and the moon' one my favourite stories
- It's reminiscent of my favourite sculpture
- The entire styling is very celtic which is part of my heritage

My own personal viwe of tattoos is that they should be meaningful, personal and be given great consideration before getting done. They are permanet people, don't let them be a permanet regret.
Alyanome
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 18, 2004 07:11
I have a tattoo on my shoulder. It is a face of wolf inside the moon. I assure you that the wolf is staring. I like it very much, because I like wolves and moon. I know both of them has some kind of meaning but I give no heed to it. This is what I like and that's all.
It's quite big, 6-7cm, and took 4 hours to make. It's done by shading, which (I understood) was the reason why it took so long. There's only two colors; black and white (in eyes). :love:

I think I thought taking this one enough: I simply hate needles and even when it was different thing I didn't know it before I got to the shop. When I saw this picture I was like that's mine and after looking other ones I just was more sure about I wanted it. I had fun with the guy who made this, though. Had lots to talk about during the 4 hours.

[Edited on 18/2/2004 by Alyanome]
RachieAchie
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 18, 2004 07:20
I'd quite like a small tattoo on my back, of some mythical creature... a dragon or... a fairy, or I don't know what. :heart: I can't see that they're THAT dangerous, and I think they can be quite meaningful. They can tell people something about who you are.

Plus they make a good conversation piece, no?
Wulf_Sternhammer
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 18, 2004 11:09
For those interested in piercing, check out Goldberry's bodyart thread.:evil:

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Wulf.
Mara
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 19, 2004 05:51
I could never regret my tattoos! Yes, if I had the choice now, I wouldn't have gotten the martini or the dice, but hey! university is the time to do these things, and they'll always remind me of that time and all the fun I had! :love: And as for the disease issue, just go somewhere that's clean! Research a bit before you get something like that done. There are plenty of certified tattoo parlours. Granted there's usually a wait before you can get your appointment, but shouldn't that be reassuring?
I'm actually thinking of getting a Canadian flag now, though I don't know where... Yup, I'm a proud Canuck! :love:

[Edited on 19/2/2004 by CelebGwilwileth]
BelleBayard
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 19, 2004 08:09
Heh... Considering it, even at my age. Want a coiled dragon over my left shoulder, the Celtic type. Oh, and for whoever that indicated that they had begun a thread similar, here's the link. It's buried back around page 5 or 6 I do believe.

http://councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=7070
sil_marien
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 19, 2004 02:15
I have three tat's, a tribal armband on my upper left arm (it's nice and pointy!), and one on each of my shoulder blades both tribal also (and both nice and pointy too!!).
I've often considered getting more but it's just getting the "right" one, I'm sure those of you with tat's get what I mean.
I got my first 11 years ago on my 18th birthday, and I got the others a couple of years later...I certainly don't regret them and I did understand at the time that they'd be with me for the rest of my life......I'm very attached to them *heheheh*:love:
glory2glorfindel
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 20, 2004 03:19
i don't have one, and don't really want one... but if i did have one, it would be something in elvish, probably something relatively simple... dunno what... or possibly celtic, or a celtic knot.
though, henna does look so pretty, my friend got one last year, and it was very un middle eastern, which it was supposed to be, but it was a very pretty celtic knot in vines that was over her entire left calf, and one on her forearm, with flowers and stuff... and it was this really gorgeous gold color for almost a month, yeah, henna would probably be my way out... lol
Bloduewedd
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 21, 2004 03:18
I have two, an egyptian winged scarab on my lower back and a lotus flower on my stomach. Both are symbolic and are placed where they can only be seen if I decide to show them. I was in my early thirties when I had them done and therefor mature enough to know exactly what I was doing.
I was in my second year of training as a tattooist when I had to give up work for health reasons and would never go back to it. I enjoyed it most of the time and met some very interesting people but on the other hand I hated the fact that some of my clients really didn't think through what they were doing and no matter how much I tried to persuade them to not have it done they still insisted on getting one. I couldn't personally handle the fact I was scarring someone for life with something they were going to regret. I was trained in a very reputable and client conscious place and saw first hand the misery caused by less competent and slap dash places when those poor folk would come to us to try and get the mistakes corrected.
Tattoos are permanent, they cannot be rubbed off and even surgery and/or laser treatment will leave some scarring so you will always be left with a reminder.
My advise to anyone thinking about it would be to probably get a henna one first or try the stick on ones to see how you actually feel about having something on your body. Think carefully about where you have it done too especially if you're younger....think about how it might affect you in the future, will it be easily seen and therefor would it affect your prospects of employment, will it ruin your wedding day or a posh night out as it's somewhere where it cannot be hidden by the clothing you really want to wear? Think carefully. Certain areas of the body such as wrists or ankles have thinner skin which is moving all the time and in contact with possible sources of infection which can lead to healing problems, and distortion of the design. Also, and this is the main question you need to ask yourself, why are you wanting one?? If your answer is 'because it looks cool/ my friend or favourite celeb has one' then you're asking for trouble as you are bound to regret it later in life, if your answer is 'because it means something very personal to me' then fine you're more likely to continue to love it.
Also be very careful about your choice of design. What you get should mean something to YOU and you only. It should be a symbol of something very important in your life, something that you will carry with you for life. The most commonly regretted designs are........peoples names; cartoon characters; celebrities; sports teams; flags; whatever is the 'in thing'. These are all things you are likely to change your mind about as the years go by and are therefor the things that surgeons/tattooists spend most of their time removing/trying to cover up. If you must get a something to do with a loved one opt for initials or something to do with their birthsign or favourite flower......something that is representational rather than obvious and in your face all the time.
As for the disease thing...if you go to a reputable tattooist and take care of your tattoo properly while it's healing (remember it is techically a wound, a sort of coloured graze if you will so treat it as such) then you are no more likely to catch anything from there than you would going to the doctors. The needles are only used once and everything is sterilised before it goes near you. Fresh needles and inks should be used for each client. The tattoo parlour should smell very strongly of disenfectant and they should be willing to let you see their sterilisation techniques. They should also be willing to refuse people and turn them away and they should ask for I.D. If they are willing to tattoo people under the age of 18 then don't go near them....they don't care!

Well enough waffling from me.
TopazDragon
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 21, 2004 04:30
I don't have a tattoo, and I never plan to get a tattoo. Not only for religious reasons, but also for the adult factor. All of the mature adults that I have heard talk about tattoos or talked to them about their tattoos have regretted getting them. They think that it shows how immature that they were when they were young. They say that they are terrible to try to hide, and can never be removed unless you feel like paying thousands and thousands of dollars. What's the point anyway? Just to have some ink thing under your skin?? Oh, and then there is the health factor. You can DIE from a disease that you can get when you get a tattoo. If you want a tattoo, then get some of those little "beauty spots" where they only last like a day. Or, you can get more permanent ones that last a week. Or, you can get a henna that lasts like two weeks. I've never done any more than the one day ones, and those are annoying at times. THINK THREE TIMES BEFORE YOU GET A TATTOO!


Wow, Legolisa, you go. You not having a tattoo is probably a great idea, for you. But, I ask, please do not stereotype. I would respectfully request that you get out and gather up a larger opinion poll, maybe outside of your church and community. Then maybe you will be better equipped to speak on the topic at hand. BTW how old are you?
Tattoos are personal, more often than not they reflect something from inside that person. I am 50+ years old and have several tattoos. I got my first tattoo, a long stem Red Rose, in the 70’s I was over 18 and made the decision based on my value system. It was several years later that I got my next. I thought long and hard about where and when I would decorate my skin and never once have I regretted having done so. I have never wanted them removed, nor do I consider myself or any other human being immature for enhancing their skin with a beautiful work of art, and yes tattoo's are art.

Legolisa, I here you condemning tattoos then you admit to gluing some tacky illusion on your skin to enhance your natural beauty, hence "beauty mark", or tattoo. What gives?

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect your freedom of speech and will defend to the death your right to say what you have to say.

True, tattoos are not for everyone and there are many who regret having made that choice. But if you choose to enhance your skin with color then do it by educating yourself first. Do not let someone or something decide what is right for you and your body. Research, make your own choice, and make that choice based on YOUR own thoughts and ideas. Be true to yourself and your value system.

Peace,
Topaz Dragon



[Edited on 21/2/2004 by TopazDragon]
BelleBayard
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 22, 2004 08:02
Hmm... Okay, I'm almost 52 and have never had a tattoo... Yet. I leave it up to each person to make those decisions on their own. Just caution that one should make certain the person who does it is certified and sterilizes their needles (yes, they use needles). Otherwise, it's up to you when you're an adult.
Galadriel_The_Hobbit
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 23, 2004 07:47
Yes, I'm planning on getting tattoos. What ones, I'll maybe go into later.

Firstly, I don't think theres anything wrong with getting a tattoo, as long as your sensible about it. Like, not getting the name of your boyfriend tattooed on you.. cause like, you could only be together another week or something. If you get things that mean something to you as a tattoo.. Like.. I dunno, something that represents something that you can live with forever, whats wrong with it? nothing. If you get it when your young, you have at least 40/50 years of it looking good before you go wrinkley, and then no one cares what you look like anyway! As long as you have some common sense, theres nothing wrong with it..

I'm planning on getting a thistle, with a scottish flag (I've drawn it and weally like it) on my leg.. because I'm scottish, but i'm planning on traveling when i'm old enough. I want to move to Australia or somewhere. But anyway, It'd be like.. Taking my country with me, you know? I'm patriotic.
I'd like a Penguin tattoo on my arm.. You know the cartoon Pingu? Yeah, well him. Besides the fact i've always been obsessed with penguins, it reminds me of when I was younger.. and innocenter. It used to be my favourite tv program. ^.^
Apart from that, It depends on what I do when I'm older. I have other ones that I'd really like, and know i could live with all my life.. But I dunno...

One thing is, never tattoo your face! Unless your Lars from rancid.. he suits his little tattoo next to his eye.. o.O
mírfain
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 24, 2004 06:11
I don't have any tattoos.. but I want some tattoos... Well... I'm "only" 14 (15 in 48 days ) so I kind of understand that my parents won't let me get a tattoo (just hope my parents doesn't see that I actually wrote that I understans it..)

however, the day I'm 18 I'm gettig one! I want the markings that's on the Ring round my ankle, and I want the chinese sign for snake (I'm born in the year of the snake) and I want a rose... and I want a little light-blue star, and I maybe calvin and hobbes (they are so cute!) and I also want an angel I think....
Morion
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 24, 2004 08:01
I want some. I'm currently 16 but I already know what i want. I'm gonna get a superman with tribal graphics on my right arm and LOTR ring inscription on my left.
Galadriel_The_Hobbit
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 24, 2004 09:17
actually, I'd also like the one ring inscription as a tattoo, but round my wrist. Again, It's something that means alot to me. I've got alot out of lotr. Is something i could live with the rest of my life.
kaylin
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 24, 2004 03:20
I have two tattoos myself. A tribal style Angel on my lower back that I got while I was still in the army. She needs to be touched up a bit and I'd maybe like to enpand on her someday, but right now, I'm happy as pie with her.

The other tattoo is an egyptian cartouche of my name in heiroglyphics on my right upper arm. I did alot of research and alot of design of my own went into it. It took me four weeks to finally decide on what I wnated my next tattoo to be, and then another four weeks to find the right translation of my name, then finding the hieroglyphics to match. I don't regret getting it, or where I placed it either.

I also plan on getting more tattoos, but haven't thought of any designs yet that I like or want done. I had thought about getting two Koi fish done on my shoulder blades and kissing in the center of my back, but I also want it in full colour, which is expensive.

I also Moderate a tattoo and piercing forum for Fetishkitten.com, and one of the biggest things I advocate about tattoos and piercings is to get them for your own reasons, not for anyone elses or because it was cool at the time. I also advocate doing the research on studios within your city, not only to find a reasonable price, but to find a place that is safe and follows Bio-hazard waste disposal laws. Reputation is everything in the industry of tattooing and piercing. One bad job and your client base can go out the window.

~Kaylin
Lozza
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 25, 2004 10:32
Okay, after about 3 years of diciding what I want I have decided on a serpent, but I´m stil looking for the exact sort of design I want. It´ll be going on my left shoulder blade, maybe 3 inches long and no more than 1 wide... I was thinking maybe a serpent entwined around a staff or a sword. If anyone knows any nice pics please direct me to them. Celtic style would also be appreciated.
kaylin
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 25, 2004 10:48
http://www.aon-celtic.com/

Here's a good site, though not sure if they have anything specific to what you're looking for.

~Kaylin
Alyanome
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 27, 2004 04:22
Hey, just out of the curiosity; how did your parents take the tattoo(s)? My mother was something like: "Oh" very dryly. And when she saw the actual tattoo she was more or less shocked about the size of it.

However, wanted to tell about two tattoos my friends has.
-Other one (or two) is wings of bat at the shoulder-blades. I think it's very cool and when I was taking the one I have, I considered about a wing or two myself at first.

- The other is an angel. It was designed by my friend's mother, who seldom doesn't have tattoos. She rocks, yeah, but is not that kind of person who would take those or piercings.
AEvenstar
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 28, 2004 12:34
Wow Mithrodwen they sound beautiful, that's the kind of thing I'd like. I'm too young at the moment and although many people in my year have got them illegally I want to wait until I'm old enough but I have some ideas of what I would like. I want a fairy on my ankle because I think that sums up my personality and this time of my life. I also want something Tolkien-esque but I haven't decided what.
frodo_baggins_of_theShire
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: February 28, 2004 06:26
My 8 friends and I want a elvish word tattoo
AEvenstar
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: March 01, 2004 06:38
i think an Elvish word is a really good idea because not only is it aesthetically pleasing but also has meaning. What sort of word were you going for? If it's for all of you, why not something which links you - like "mellon" friend?
kaylin
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: March 01, 2004 08:23
Hey, just out of the curiosity; how did your parents take the tattoo(s)? My mother was something like: "Oh" very dryly. And when she saw the actual tattoo she was more or less shocked about the size of it.


Mine were not to bad about it actually. My mom shook her head and said at least it wasn't on a noticable place, but my Dad was way cooler about the who thing.

My mom also flipped out when I got my labret pierced, saying that I'd loose my job (which I haven't).

~Kaylin
Tariel
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Post RE: Tattoos- who's got them, who wants them, what do or would you have, and why?
on: March 01, 2004 08:09
I have two tattoos, and I'll give you a clue, part of one of them is to the left of this comment!
I'm 27, and this summer, my first tattoo will be over a decade old. I got my second tattoo, "auta i lomë- aurë entuluva" in a tengwar script that I drew a little under year ago.
I do not regret my tattoos. They mean a lot to me, and they remind me of certain times in my life, aside from their literal meanings.

+I would wait at least a year before I got a tattoo- I like to hang the design somewhere prominent so I have to look at it all the time, and see if I get sick of it.
+draw the design on your body to test how it goes with clothes/how difficult it is to hide. - I have one tattoo on my back, that hardly anyone sees, that is more private, and one an arm band that I end up spending more time talking about with people.

I try to avoid judging people who are different from me.
I know there are people who find tattoos very shocking/offensive, don't believe in them, but the world is a big place, and there are many peoples in it.
you can't please everyone.
I've seen tattoos I personally didn't like, and I've met people who regretted one/some/ all of their tattoos.

However, also know lots of people who do not, and have never regretted their tattoos, including people over 90 years old living in a nursing home.
I've also seen some beautiful, amazing tattoos.

p.s.
It's a very bad idea to get a tattoo under 18 since you are still growing, and this can distort the design.

[Edited on 12/3/2004 by Tariel]
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