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Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: June 28, 2012 12:58
Hi all, I am stuck on a translation issue. I saw a request on Tumblr to translate two different phrases into Sindarin, so I thought I'd try to tackle it. My problem is that there is no Sindarin word for "creativity" (the phrase is "best creativity"). I did some digging and found that the Quenya verb "onta" ("create") and noun "onna" ("creature"), and also the Sindarin noun "ûn" ("creature") all derive from the sundocarmë "ONO", which means "to beget".

So then I began searching for Sindarin words for "born", and I found the verb root "onna-". So this leaves me in a bit of a pickle. I was hoping I could follow the step-by-step guide from the Duke Physics page, but it is proving much harder than that.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: June 29, 2012 02:07
Okay, I decided to take it in a different direction. It occurred to me that "imagination" is similar in meaning to "creativity". The Quenya word for "imagination" is nausë, stem NOW(O). Using the website I mentioned in my previous post, I have derived núwe (or núw) to be the Sindarin word for "imagination". These do not appear correct, as I have never seen the combination /uw/ anywhere. Could anyone with more skill than I please help me out? This could end up a tattoo, so I want to get it right.

Here is the list of steps I took.
1. now
2. nôwê (-ê for conceptual nouns, causes the sundóma to become long)
3. núwe (ô > ú, shorten the final vowel)
4. núw (drop the final vowel)

EDIT: Alternately, I want to derive it from the Q word intyalë (INK/INIK). Here is the process I used for that. Please let me know if it's correct.

1. ink (inik)
2. înkê (inikê)
3. ínke (inike)
4. ínc (inic)

I have no idea if either of these are correct. Núw just seems wrong, and ínc (inic) doesn't "feel" right.

Then, finally, there is the question of how to add the superlative -wain. I would presume that I would get núwain and incwain (inicwain). In the latter case, I'm not sure that cw can be a sound in Sindarin, but maybe that doesn't matter for compounds.

Anyway, I could be completely wrong on this, but any feedback would be appreciated.
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: June 29, 2012 09:48
Right...

Inc is already a word in Sindarin, it means "guess, idea, notion".

The superlative is not '-wain'...I'll paste from my own page, hang on (this is from Parma Eldalamberon 17 before you question whether I've made this up by the way!)

To turn a Sindarin word, such as beren (brave/bold) into bravest/boldest, we do the following:

If the word starts with a vowel, apart from u we add Raw- to the front of the word, and then apply soft mutation to the word.
If the word starts with any other letter, including u we add Ro- to the front of the word, and then apply soft mutation.

I would never use onna- as it means 'to beget, to create'. It's used for 'born', but that's it.

Back to looking for a word for 'creativity' I'm a bit stuck tbh (doesn't happen very often). If we look at synonyms for 'creativity' we get

cleverness, genius, imagination, imaginativeness, ingenuity, inspiration, inventiveness, originality, resourcefulness, talent, vision

Vision in Sindarin is indemm, but that's literally like a 'mind vision', so not appropriate. Cleverness doesn't seem to fit.

I had a look at the roots for writing (teitha-, TEK) and to fashion, to make, but the former is literally 'to make a mark' and the second is all about 'to literally make something', i.e to be a potter, or a smith, they're not abstract concepts.

Edit - lol, I'm an idiot, I forgot about the root ma3, which gives Maenas = Craft, art. Any good? (It's the abstract of maen = skilled, clever).
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: June 30, 2012 02:03
Well the "inc" is a Noldorin word and doesn't have an accent, so wouldn't it have changed some for modern Sindarin? In any case, I thought accents could change the meanings of words. Also, it appears that a variation of the root INK is INIK, and that can be derived into inic (if I did it correctly, of course).

What do you mean by ma3? I don't know how the numbers come into play.

Finally, I am trying to translate the song "Misty Mountains Cold", and there are several words that I cannot find a good match for. I tried constructing those as well, but I have absolutely no idea if they are right. I'll post that after getting this issue figured out, though.

Thanks for your help.

Oh but yes, how would I go about using ma3 to form a word? Is that a sundóma too?
And the Sindarin lessons are wrong if -wain isn't the superlative, because that's where I got that from.
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: June 30, 2012 04:04
The Sindarin lessons on here are years out of date, yes.

3 was the representation I used, it's not an English sound, it's Ʒ, I was being lazy and couldn't be bothered to find the actual symbol, sorry.
It's in the Histories of Middle Earth, roots at the back of part 1. It's the root that forms Maen and Maenas (which are attested words).

Not all words changed from Old Sindarin (Noldorin) into Modern Sindarin, there's an awful lot of words that remained the same, inc being one of them.
Yes you can have a similar word with a longer accent, the words for eye and child are excellent examples.

The example you're giving there, INIK/INK - the extra vowels are added to intensify the meaning, like the roots NAR and ANAR (fire, and sun respectively), though intensifiers are usually added to the beginning...

Looking at the roots in HoME, 'INIK' has a question mark next to it, so I'm guessing it might have been a typo of Tolkien, and Christopher wasn't sure about it.

----------------------------------------------

Changing Intyalë into Sindarin

1) INK + ê
2) ê -> í = Inkí
3) K -> C = Incí
4) Lenition due to the I (I-affection) = Ingí
5) Run a quick check on the dictionaries, does the word already exist, nope.

Basically almost what you did a couple of posts up, just with the lenition due to i-affection.

It also removes the need for a homophone, which I do try and keep to a minimum, as yes, as long as the accent is longer they are pronounced differently, but, meh.
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: June 30, 2012 04:55
Ah well thank you. I'm a little confused on the steps because it doesn't seem to follow what was on Thorsten Renk's page, but I went to your website, and you definitely appear to have the credentials for this more than I do. I'll go with ingí, then.

Now for the others…

I'm trying to translate "Misty Mountains Cold" into Sindarin. (If any translations already exist, I am not aware of them.) With the second line, "to dungeons deep and caverns old", I realized that Sindarin is lacking words meaning "dungeon" and "deep". Understanding that "dungeon" in this case isn't referring to an actual dungeon, but to a great cavern, I looked up possible roots to express this idea.

For "dungeons", I came up with two variations using Thorsten's instructions: edenthol and gathol. Here is the breakdown of each of them.

ADANT (deep pit < DANT, pit)
1. adantle
2. adantl
3. adanthl
4. adanthol (pl. edenthol)

GATH (cavern)
1. gathle
2. gathl
3. gathl
4. gathol (pl. gaithol)

In both, I simply went through step-by-step and applied the necessary changes as they came. Since I obviously was wrong with INK, though, I might have missed something here too.

Do you have any particular resources you use to do this? Unfortunately, the only books I own or have access to are The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion (currently reading), and Unfinished Tales (which I haven't read yet).
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: June 30, 2012 04:16
There's already a word for dungeon

gador N. [gˈɑdr̩] (gadr N.) n. prison, dungeon ◇ Ety/358

-----------------------------

I've translated a lot of poems into Sindarin, but haven't done that one. I would translate that one line as

nad 'edyr nûr a 'aith vrûn

nûr = is a homophone, means both 'deep' and 'race'.

--------------------------------------

Pick up a copy of either The Complete History of Middle Earth (vol. 1) or The Lost Tales (it's that bit of the History that you want, it has the roots at the back).
For some of the newer concepts you want http://www.eldalamberon.com/parma17.html
and The Collected Vinyar Tengwar Vol. 5b is also very useful (has a load more roots in it).


Edit - mutated gedyr (how I forgot that I have no idea)
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 08, 2012 11:05
Ah okay, well thanks so much for your help! (I've been absent a week with pneumonia, hence the late response.)

When looking things up before, I had considered not using gador for "dungeon" since the definition is strictly "prison, dungeon", and in English the word is broader in meaning. In the context of the song, I am not sure if it is referring to literal dungeons or not. But I will stick with your translation because you definitely have a lot more history and experience with this than I do.

How do you go about your translations, to get more natural-looking phrases like that? Here is what I had prior to reading your suggestion, not yet mutated: "Na edenthol nuic a gaithol ioer". (For "adanthol" and "gathol", "deep pit" and "cavern" respectively, I used the plural formation instructions that said that in words ending in -ol and -or, the endings were to be treated as if they were not there and only the preceding syllable(s) were to be changed in the plural, due to how they were formed originally.) What you have is much nicer-looking than mine. Is it just the word choice?
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 09, 2012 12:00
Sorry to hear that, are you feeling better now?

When I do poems I tend to literally translate them, rather than keep to any metre that the original poem has (other Sindarin/Quenyan scholars do it the other way round as is their prerogative, but often I feel you lose a lot of the original meaning!)

So aye, word choice I suppose, mine literally reads 'To deep dungeons and old caverns'. If you swapped the word order round to try and emulate the English it just ends up reading as nonsense.
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 09, 2012 12:32
Thank you, yes, feeling 90% better. I'm back at work, so that's all that matters. (I get on here only during breaks, don't worry! ^_^)

I have a question about one word, though. You use "nad" for "to", but I thought the preposition was "na". Is the other a variation of it?

Also, is it generally okay to use Noldorin words in Sindarin translations? I use http://www.elfdict.com/ a lot, but it has a lot more Noldorin words than Sindarin. It would be useful to be able to use both.
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 09, 2012 12:50
Ah the joys of 'na'.
Aye it was originally thought that na meant 'to' in all cases, but it is now thought that na = to (a time), e.g. Na vinuial, and nad = to (a place), e.g. Nad Imladris. And er, well that's embarrassing, I forgot to mutate gedyr when I did that wee translation didn't I, it should be 'edyr.

Haven't really looked much at that site yet if I'm honest, but when you look in books like The Lost Tales, where it lists roots and then words, what's written as Noldorin generally matches the Sindarin word - honestly I'd have to look at each word and tell you whether it was an older form or not to be able to tell, I can't say a blanket 'yes use any word marked as Noldorin' or you might end up with some weird concoction.
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 09, 2012 05:07
Hm okay… I guess I really ought to look into those resources you recommended. My excuse for not is that I'm a college student with bills due very soon.

So where would you say is the most up-to-date set of rules or lessons for Sindarin? I looked over your site a bit and will probably go through the material there, but I have found several other websites with lessons on them as well. Then there's the problem of dictionaries, because I was using Hiswelókë's until I read that his hasn't been updated in a good four years now.

And one more question for ya, according to the information under subheading "Monosyllables later becoming polysyllables" on http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/sindarin.htm it says that words that used to be monosyllabic ("gadr") and later became polysyllabic ("gador") have different rules for plurals. In this case, "gador" would become "geidor" instead of "gedyr", if I am understanding correctly. Do you know anything about this?
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 09, 2012 06:24
Realelvish.net is kept up to date, I share several of her views but have different ideas when it comes to verb past tenses and whether one should mutate after a nominative pronoun.

Thorsten Renk's Sindarin course (Pedin Edhellen) is a tad out of date but still perfectly usable for the most part. And the lessons on this site are years out of date. Apart from those four I don't actually know anyone else who offers a lesson course for Sindarin.

Onto plurals:

There are some known irregular Sindarin plurals as I'm sure you've found (ael - aelin, alph - eilph etc.) Had a quick skim of that page to make sure I know what you're on about, and aye, it's the same thing as listed here (by the same author):

"OS *rokla becomes, after loss of the final vowel and mutation rogl. As for OS: makla (sword), an o is inserted in Sindarin, resulting in S: *rogol (saddle). However, this word would not form its plural as **regyl but as *rygol."

So the reason this word (and any others formed similarly) has an irregular plural is due to the original root, and the subsequent changing into Sindarin from Old Sindarin or Quenya.

Rogol = Rygol because as far as it's concerned, it's pluralising Rogl.

On the same note though, you can *always* use the regular plural and put it down to dialect (personally I consider the 'true' irregular plurals of words such as these [NOT words like Aelin, Eilph, but ones like Ranc, which has the irregular plural Rengyr and the regular plural Rainc] to be Doriathrin Sindarin, and the regular plurals to be more modern Sindarin).

Does any of that make any sense, she asks hopefully?
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 09, 2012 07:57
He cautiously nods his head in a gesture of affirmation, whilst internally panicking over the sheer magnitude of all the information he has yet to take in.

In other words, o.O
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 09, 2012 08:55
Hehe, sorry. Let's re-word it in simpler terms (I tested what I was talking about on my husband and he had a bewildered expression too).

Right, had a check on the root for Gador, which is GAT(H) and it does indeed list it as Gadr, Gador, suggesting that it started life as the former and ended up in 3rd age Sindarin as the latter.

This would give us an irregular plural of Gaidor (from pluralising the original Gadr) and a regular plural of Gedyr (from pluralising Gador).

I would treat the former as 'pure' Sindarin, aka Doriathrin, and the latter as Exilic-Sindarin, aka what the language evolved into. In other words either plural would be acceptable unless you're writing for the Mithrim or somesuch.
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 09, 2012 09:39
Ah, that makes much more sense! Does your husband know Sindarin too?

I just realized, I had tried working out the root GATH (I don't remember if I knew that the H was optional), and I came up with "gathol". Obviously the TH wouldn't become a D the way it would in GAT, but where does the ending R come from? The only Rs I see in suffixes are for male/female nouns. (Again, I'm using this site: http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/rogue.html)
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 09, 2012 10:01
Not at all, he's just listened to me jabber on for the last couple of years (picking bits up by osmosis).

Ah, what you're looking at there is a whole load of Quenyan suffixes added to roots, and then a Sindarin word made from it. Sindarin has all sorts of word endings, and as Gador is an attested word by Tolkien with no other info other than its root and the other words made from the same root, so I really couldn't say where the ending came from.
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 09, 2012 10:47
Oh, well that makes sense then. ^_^ Thank you for all your help. I haven't really gotten anything else done on that poem since I've been sick all last week, but I'll run it by you when I'm done, if you don't mind.
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 12, 2012 12:13
Well now, Galadivren, I appear to be needing your help again. I am trying to tackle "roaring". Sindarin has no verbs which come close to capturing the meaning, so I looked at Quenya and found the word "rávëa", which literally means "roaring (adj.)". It seems related to the root RAW, which also derives to "râu" (lion) in "primitive Elvish" (http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/primelv.htm).

Again I turn to my friend Thorsten Renk, and on his Sindarin reconstruction page, he gives an example of turning the Quenya word caita- into Sindarin. So here I try the same with rávëa:

RAW
1. rawnâ (perfect passive particple "roared"; I am looking for the present participle "roaring")
2. raunâ (w > u)
3. rauna (long ending-vowel becomes short)
4. raun (drop final vowel)

This seems completely wrong to me, but I don't know enough about tenses (getting the present participle "roaring") to know if I'm anywhere close, even if my reconstruction is correct. Help?
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 12, 2012 12:55
Haha, you're at the same verse as I am then (good going!), I decided I'd translate the poem as well, and I was planning to look at what I needed to reconstruct later; I will do it in a bit and let you know the result.

Right...

First thing I looked at was the Quenyan adjective rávëa = roaring, which changed into râf in Sindarin, and debated using that with the verb 'to be', hemmed and hawwed a bit, and then had a further look and found laustaner vb. in past tense 'lausted' ("not 'roared' or 'rushed' but made a windy noise") which seemed to fit better to me, so after quickly checking how Quenya verbs form their roots (I really need to sit down and learn Quenya) I ended up with the Sindarin verb lausta- = to make a rushing windy noise.

That's my preference for this line anyway.
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 12, 2012 07:44
I… think I have bitten off more than I can chew, here. I can see how rávëa is related to râf, but I have no idea how you went from one to the other. I think I need to do a lot more studying before attempting to translate an entire poem like this. I do not have a good handle on verbs yet at all, and apparently my reconstructive skills leave much to be desired. I want to keep working on this, but I am certain that your version will be definitive.

Anywhere, here is what I have for notes so far. Besides the line that you supplied, nothing has been mutated except a couple of plurals, and I am sure that some words are out of order (this is a word-for-word list so far; I'll worry about the grammar later).


Far Over the Misty Mountains Cold,
To Dungeons Deep and Caverns Old,
The Pines were Roaring on The Heights,
The Winds were Moaning in the Night,
The Fire was Red, it Flaming Spread,
The Trees Like Torches Blazed with Light.

Or Hithaeglir hae a ring
Nad ‘edyr nûr a ‘aith vrûn
In thýn _____ _____ erin aegais
In gwaew _____ _____ ned fuin
I naur _____ born/caran, ten _____ _____
In galadhrim sui _____ _____ di calad

gawad – howling/roaring
Q. rávëa – roaring (adj.)

Q. ñona- – groan
calar – lamp
N. pelia- – spread
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 12, 2012 08:54
If I've disheartened you I apologise sincerely, I really didn't mean to! (In truth I'd love more people to learn Tolkien's languages )

The steps I went through to get from rávëa to râf are:
1) Take off the final vowel as it's not a verb that needs to maintain it
2) Shorten the ë (actually I bystepped this because of step 4, but this is the process in full) to an í
3) Change the v to an f (as an f at the end of a word is pronounced as a v in Sindarin)
4) Take off the í as final vowels aren't maintained in Sindarin (and the ëa together isn't a diphthong that turns into something else that would stay)
5) There is argument for the final word being ráf but if we look at other one vowel words in Sindarin most of them have a longer vowel, so I decided to do likewise, and thus we end up with...râf

Oh aye you can worry about mutations once the word order is correct, that's fine, as proved a few posts ago I sometimes do that!

I looked at using gawa- = to howl, and I decided against it and reconstructed a verb for 'to moan', but either would work, definitely. I also used calar too for torch, as although there's a word for 'brand' it's really not clear whether it's a torch-like brand, or a brand like one may find on an animal!

I actually thought you meant you were doing the full 10 verse poem from The Hobbit, that's why I was amazed you were at the same point as me already!

------------------------------------------
And now some notes...I'll leave word order for you for now

In + th = I th

I used the word taen = height (summit of a mountain)

Min = In the (another plural preposition, which I see you're aware of from Erin)

Galadhrim = Tree people You want either Gelaidh (big trees) or Yrn (trees)
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 12, 2012 09:30
Ooooo, I forgot this was longer in The Hobbit… I was just thinking of the song in the movie preview, not the entire thing.

Where are you suggesting using "min"? The only time I see "in the" is in the phrase "in the Night", which is singular.

Hahaha about the tree people. I will change that.

It is hard to find time to work on this. Pretty much my only free time to do so is during my lunch breaks or other short, "unofficial" breaks during work. (Thankfully, it's a low-maintenance job.)

Might I ask, how did you reconstruct a word for "moan"? Elfdict.com doesn't have "moan" in any language.

So are you saying that you are working on the entire ten-verse poem? :O

EDIT: Out of curiosity, how did I do on the first line? I reworded it to say "Over the Misty Mountains Far and Cold" because it seems to mean the same as "far over", and I don't think "Or hae Hithaeglir ring" would be correct.
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 12, 2012 11:03
Aye I meant the line 'in the night', I didn't mean plural in that way, I meant the + a preposition. Badly worded on my part.

Yip I'm doing the full poem, one verse to go (been very busy with other things the last couple of days).

My version of the first line is 'Hae or i Chithaeglir ring' - 'Far over the cold Misty Mountains'.

It's a bit more theoretical than I'm really happy with, but I made it from
quainë ("q") adj.? or participle? "wailing (pl.)" (MC:213; this is "Qenya")

It's in Helge Fauskanger's latest Quenyan wordlist (whether it was in versions before that I don't know, I haven't checked). Means 'to moan' rather than 'to wail', but you can tell which form of moan it means (there is another verb, Muia- for the other version of to moan, to whinge, anyway!)
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 12, 2012 11:15
Yet again, I am highly impressed. How long have you been doing translations and studying Elvish?
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 12, 2012 11:45
Properly? About 2 years now, so not that long really, but I've always loved languages. Before that I was able to pick out odd word and such, and when I was little I was vaguely aware that there were these languages that Tolkien had made up hehe.
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 13, 2012 12:14
Okay, so completely jumping horses here, but I was looking over my work for a request I'm tackling, and I was wondering if you could confirm/deny/help what I have so far.

"The best creativity comes from the heart of God."

"I rawingí tôl uin-gûr Eru."

(You will notice the word ingí which you constructed in there.)

If this is right, I am going to send it on to the person who asked for it.
Galadivren
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on: July 13, 2012 12:41
Raw-ingí sounds like 'imaginationest' to me...

What about...

I rovaer ingí tôl uin gûr Eru

The best imagination (it) comes from the heart of Eru (god)
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 13, 2012 04:05
Oh that does sound better.

Now I have a question, though. Wouldn't the adjective rovaer come after ingí? Then it would be,

I ingí rovaer tôl uin gûr Eru.
Galadivren
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on: July 13, 2012 05:44
Aye it would.
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 13, 2012 06:19
Okay, so one final question before I send this on. I pretty much only use the Mode of Beleriand when writing in Sindarin, so I am not as familiar with the tehta mode. I tried transcribing both, since the tehta mode is, admittedly, much prettier and better for things like tattoos. Could you please let me know if I have these right? Thanks! The font I am using is Tengwar Annatar.

Tehta mode: Â-~B b%~B 7r^lE7 1~Nj hU5 x~M6 7R`M-Â
Beleriand: Â-~ `g`V 7hr]á7 1hRj .Õ6 s.R7 l7.-Â

Image
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 13, 2012 06:42
Oh! I just noticed that I used the /o/ tehta for Eru instead of the /u/. I changed it in the tehta characters from my last post Of course the picture still shows my mistake…
Galadivren
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on: July 13, 2012 09:01
I actually know absolutely nothing about tengwar and cirth, you'd be better off asking someone like Isildilme, here http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=103449&start=1110
Cillendor
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on: July 13, 2012 09:03
Oh okay, thanks.
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 13, 2012 09:24
Hm.... I have asked him/her, but I have actually seen their work before, and it is only a literal letter-for-letter transcription of English. I hope s/he knows the various modes for Sindarin. I'm about 96% confident in what I have, but my main concern is the diphthongs /ae/ and /ui/ in the tehta mode.
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