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Re: Translations Thread
on: September 22, 2012 07:51

I am trying to find a word for "because" in Sindarin. I have tried thinking of every possible synonym and way to reword the sentence, but it cannot be done without "because" or "since" or something like it. The closest I could think of is an, but I don't think it has as versatile of a meaning as "for" does in English.

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Re: Translations Thread
on: September 22, 2012 03:47

Tolkien used an as for for a while in Quenya, so many neo-writers tend to use it the same way in Sindarin.

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Re: Translations Thread
on: September 22, 2012 10:22

Quote from Smoore on September 22, 2012, 17:51
I am trying to find a word for "because" in Sindarin. I have tried thinking of every possible synonym and way to reword the sentence, but it cannot be done without "because" or "since" or something like it. The closest I could think of is an, but I don't think it has as versatile of a meaning as "for" does in English.

"Because" is one of those (thus far unattested) items that one must make use of his imagination and grammatical resourcefulness to circumnavigate for. It's not always even absolutely mandatory; and sometimes one might just use thia "it appears (that)", thêl/impers. *theil, thail (< *stel-jā) "it means, purposes" or some other neologism as a stand-in thought bridge, e.g. nâr (†"it connotes [that]" < NYAR); na ýred "by course of that" (-ed : PE17:46); a h-elo ("and be it seen" <~ Finnish näe-s, nähkää-s); *si air ("now that/when" ); etc.

[Edited on 02/19/2014 by Elhath]

LotR-era Sindarin subject pronouns (with verbs) â– On translating "until" â– Old /-ch/ of /man agorech/ discussed

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Re: Translations Thread
on: September 22, 2012 11:00

Quote from Elhath on September 23, 2012, 08:22*si air ("now that/when"); etc.

Hmm! Interesting. From what root did you construct *air?

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Re: Translations Thread
on: September 22, 2012 11:50

Quote from Naruvir on September 23, 2012, 09:00
Hmm! Interesting. From what root did you construct *air?

It could be a plausible Third Age variant of *aer (theoretical cognate of Q írë, either following the type II/"substantive" pattern demonstrated in roots like LI- : lae; laew [VT45:27] & G-LIR- : N glaer - or alternatively from a suffix *-jā, *-jV̄); also notably compare the relative variant ai (for *ī?) which happens to follow the otherwise same-sounding di in Ae Adar Nín.

LotR-era Sindarin subject pronouns (with verbs) â– On translating "until" â– Old /-ch/ of /man agorech/ discussed

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Re: Translations Thread
on: September 23, 2012 03:31

Oh wow, thanks for such a detailed answer. I guess it would help finding a word if I provide a little context. I am trying to translate the verse, "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will not fear because thou art with me." Substituting "even though" with "when" was straightforward enough, but I don't think any of your suggestions for "because" fit quite right. "Because" here is meant to indicate a permanence and sureness of the statement in the second clause.

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Re: Translations Thread
on: October 04, 2012 04:19

Does anyone know what "you" is in Sindarin?

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Re: Translations Thread
on: October 04, 2012 04:28

Quote from Hurion on October 4, 2012, 14:19
Does anyone know what "you" is in Sindarin?

Le = you are (formal) Le sael = You are wise
Ci = you are (informal) Gi melethig = You are my love (lenition due to subject)

Len = you (object pronoun, formal) Len gohenon = I forgive you
Cin = you (object pronoun, informal) Gin melathon an-uir = I will love you forever

Anlen = to/for you (dative pronoun, formal) Linnathon anlen = I will sing for you
Angin = to/for you (dative pronon, informal) Darthon angin = I wait for you

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Re: Translations Thread
on: October 04, 2012 11:38

thanks!

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Re: Translations Thread
on: October 05, 2012 01:08

If you're still reading, I forgot to mention that there's also

De = you are (Doriathrin)

depending what it is you need it for!

Evelily413

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Re: Translations Thread
on: November 29, 2012 05:11

Can anyone tell me what 'champion' means? I've been searching all over for it and I can't find it. I want to know because I've been doing some research on my last name, Nilan, which is Irish and means 'champion'.

Any sort of help would be great.

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 02, 2012 08:07

In English? "Champion" means "winner" or "great person". A long time ago in certain parts of the world, armies would occasionally send out their champions to fight each other rather than have two entire armies fight and die. That way they wouldn't lose as many people. Also, a champion can be the victor of a match.

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 05, 2012 10:02

Just a quick question. The phrase 'Le hannon', meaning thank you, is sometimes put the other way, 'Hannon le'. Are both correct or is 'Hannon le' correct because it uses the Sindarin sentence structure.

Let me know what you think.

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 05, 2012 05:05

Actually, if we assume the verb hanna- is correct in the first place, it should be 'Le hannon', following the pattern of 'Le linnon' = You I thank, You I sing (to).

However, this also assumes that Len = you undergoes nasal mutation to become Le, which I'm really not convinced about. Tolkien changed his mind (and his texts) so often, that like Mr Salo I wonder whether some of the texts wouldn't have been altered again to match his own rules at some point in the future. Le = you are, after all, and the object pronoun is whats needed here.

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 15, 2012 07:47

Hey all! I am new to Elvish language- although I want to learn more!- and am writing a story where Legolas and my personal character speak in Elvish frequently. Could anyone help me translate this piece? I can't get any help elsewhere! I need translations of words used in comfort, such as "you are safe" and "be calm/still."
Thanks in advance!!!

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 15, 2012 07:56

Ci barn = You are safe (informal) Le barn = you are safe (formal)

Barn is a reconstructed word (not mine, for once).

There's no word for 'calm' or 'still', but what about:
No sîdhweg = be peaceful

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 16, 2012 11:17

Thanks

those work perfectly!

AdanielJustice

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 22, 2012 02:32

how would you say "the crystal" I know that the=i and crystal=ivor but i ivor doesn't sound right

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 22, 2012 04:06

Well it's exactly right

i ivor = The crystal

It's not plural, so it's not 'in', and ivor doesn't mutate.

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 22, 2012 04:30

I am trying to say master of _____. I have the last part down but I can't figure out how to say master of. I could really use some help

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 22, 2012 05:12

It depends what they're the master of, actually, what's the other half of the sentence? The reason I say this, is because you have 'o(d)' = of, from a place, and you have en = of the, and then there is the other 'of' which is implied in Sindarin.

If the sentence was (for example):
'Master of the sword', then it would be Herdir e-grist
'Master of Rivendell', then it would Herdir od Imladris
'Master of you' then, well, I'd probably flip the sentence round to something else, but for the purposes of this example, Herdir len.

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 22, 2012 05:23

it is master of my heart

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 22, 2012 05:28

It's quite simple! of is (mostly) implicit in Sindarin, i.e. Fornost Erain ("Norbury of Kings").

Quote from Hurion on December 22, 2012, 15:23
it is master of my heart

Hîr/heron/herdir guren
Master of my heart

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 22, 2012 05:31

Galadivren, I have some comments on your translations..!

'Master of the sword', then it would be Herdir e-grist

Words beginning with gr- are believed to retain en thus: Herdir en-grist. I think that you can use na here as well!

'Master of Rivendell', then it would Herdir od Imladris

This would more appropriately be translated as master from Rivendell. Herdir Imladris is sufficient, but considering who the "master" of Rivendell really was, hîr Imladris might be more correct!

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 24, 2012 01:08

Hi guys! Could someone possibly help me translate a phrase? " To discover new oceans, you need to loose sight of the shore" I have installed tengwar fonts

PLEASE & THANK YOU XXX

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 26, 2012 06:25

I have a language question related to The Silmarillion. I've come across a couple names that don't seem right, based on what I know. For example, shouldn't "Úmarth" be "Úvarth?" Also there is the song "Laer Cú Beleg"; shouldn't it be "Laer Cú Veleg"?

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 26, 2012 06:45

Quote from Cheyenne-Lexi on December 24, 2012, 23:08
Hi guys! Could someone possibly help me translate a phrase? " To discover new oceans, you need to loose sight of the shore" I have installed tengwar fonts PLEASE & THANK YOU XXX

I **think** it'll be this: Hired 'aeairyn 'wîn, boe palan-dîr od i falas.

I reworded it to "To find new oceans, one must look far-away from the shore."

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 27, 2012 05:50

Quote from Smoore on December 26, 2012, 16:25
I have a language question related to The Silmarillion. I've come across a couple names that don't seem right, based on what I know. For example, shouldn't "Úmarth" be "Úvarth?" Also there is the song "Laer Cú Beleg"; shouldn't it be "Laer Cú Veleg"?

Silmarillion is riddled with dialectal Sindarin, whether it is spoken by the Noldor or the Nandor. That said, this doesn't necessarily have to apply to the samples that you presented...

"Úmarth" be "Úvarth

This is likely ú+amarth > úmarth. Just like, for an example, *A Atar > Átar in Átaremma

"Laer Cú Beleg"; shouldn't it be "Laer Cú Veleg"?

Beleg was an elf, so it's possible that the song actually says "Song of Beleg's Bow" rather than "Song of Mighty Bow" hence no mutation.

To discover new oceans, you need to loose sight of the shore

I'd propose...

A *chired aeair hîn, boe *allen mistad o falas.
Finding oceans new, is necessary for you to stray from [the] shore.

* allen < an + le + -n "for thee" (R. Derdzinski)
* hired < hir-ed "finding" (D. Salo, RGEO:67, VT49:39)

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 29, 2012 08:31

Thanks Smoore!!!!!!!!! I'm going to have that tattooed

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Re: Translations Thread
on: December 29, 2012 09:00

To discover new oceans, you need to loose sight of the shore

Heruin ned i-NazgÃ»l

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Re: Translations Thread
on: January 02, 2013 02:24

Hi All!

I'm working on making a sample of a computer-based lesson (which uses audio and images) that would help people learn a language. The purpose is to showcase the idea that all you need to start learning any language is to be guided through understanding small bits of conversation... and then as you understand, the vocabulary and grammatical complexity gradually increases. It's actually for training purposes (to train teachers)... so I'd like to use a language that the vast majority of the world has no idea about. Sindarin, what else?

I realize that Sindarin's not meant for conversation... not going to try to make it so. But surely it can support a very simple conversation? Enough for a few sample lessons, at least?

I know nothing about Sindarin.. have combed through the internet to find some resources and guides. Have also emailed a few experts. I would really appreciate if you could look through the dialogues I've put together, and let me know what mistakes there are. (I'm sure there are several!) There are also a few words that I don't know what an equivalent would be.. like Ah! and Hmm and OK. Just left those in English for now. Also ran into some pronoun discrepancies which I didn't know how to resolve... I'm sure you'll notice.

Thanks!
Nikki

___________________________________

LESSON 1

A: Well met!

B: Well met! I’m B!

A: I’m A! Farewell, B!

B: Farewell, A!

A: Mae govannen!

B: Mae govannen! Im B!

A: Im A! Cuio vae, B!

B: Cuio vae, A!

___________________________________

LESSON 2.1

A: Well met! (A is a male human)

B: Well met! I’m B! Are you a human? (B is a male elf)

A: I’m A, a human. Are you an elf?

B: Yes, I am an elf.

A: Farewell, B!

B: Farewell, A!

A: Mae govannen!

B: Mae govannen! Im B! Ech adan?

A: Im A. Im adan! Ech edhel?

B: Ma, Im edhel.

A: Cuio vae, B!

B: Cuio vae, A!

___________________________________
LESSON 2.2

C: Well met! (C is a dwarf)

A: Well met! I’m A! Are you a dwarf? (A is a human)

C: I’m C, a dwarf. Are you a human?

A: Yes, I am a human.

C: Hmm... are you a human?

B: No, I am not a human. I am an elf. (B is male!)

C: Mae govannen!

A: Mae govannen! Im A! Ech naug?

C: Ma. Im C. Im naug. Ech adan?

A: Ma, Im adan.

C: Hmm... ech adan?

B: Uin. Uin adan. Im edhel.

___________________________________

LESSON 3

B: Well met, A!

A: Well met, B! Who’s that?

B: That’s C, a dwarf.

A: Oh. Who’s that?

B: That’s D, an elf-maiden.

A: OK. And who’s that?

B: ORC!

B: Mae govannen, A!

A: Mae govannen, B! Man est? (pointing to C, a male dwarf)

B: Ho C, a dwarf.

A: Oh. Man est? (pointing to D, a female elf)

B: He D, an elleth.

A: OK. Ah man est?

B: ORCH!

___________________________________

LESSON 4

B: Well met! (male elf)

E: Well met! I’m B! Who are you? (female human)

B: I’m B.

E: Are you an elf?

B: Yes, I am. And you are a human.

E: Haha, yes I am!

B: Hmm.... he is a human... she is a human.. and they are humans.

E: Ah. And him?

B: He’s an elf.

E: And her?

B: She’s an elf. And they are elves.

E: I thank you, B!

B: My pleasure, E.

E: Farewell!

B: Farewell, E.

B: Mae govannen!

E: Mae govannen! Im E! Man ci?

B: Im B.

E: Ech edhel?

B: Ma. Im edhel. Ah ci adan.

E: Haha, ma! Im adan!

B: Hmm... ho adan (pointing to man).. he adan (pointing to woman)... ah hai adan. (pointing to group of mixed-gender humans)

E: Ah. A ho? (pointing at male elf)

B: Ho edhel.

E: A he? (pointing at female elf)

B: He elleth. Ah hai edhel. (pointing to mixed-gender group of elves.)

E: Hannad, B!

B: Glassen, E.

E: Cuio vae, B!

B: Cuio vae, E.

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Re: Translations Thread
on: January 03, 2013 12:59

My translations to the right of your English, in bold.
___________________________________

LESSON 1

A: Well met! Mae g'ovannen!

B: Well met! I’m B! Mae g'ovannen! Ni B!

A: I’m A! Farewell, B! Ni A! Novaer, B!

B: Farewell, A! Novaer, A!

You can use 'Im' but it's an imperative, it is 'I am!' rather than 'I am...'
Cuio vae (live well) would work equally as 'Farewell' (Novaer = be well)
___________________________________

LESSON 2.1

A: Well met! (A is a male human) Mae g'ovannen!

B: Well met! I’m B! Are you a human? (B is a male elf) Mae g'ovannen! Ni B! Le/Ci fair/adan?

A: I’m A, a human. Are you an elf? Ni A, ni adan. Le/Ci edhel?

B: Yes, I am an elf. Ni edhel.

A: Farewell, B! Novaer, B!

B: Farewell, A! Novaer, A!

I know Thorsten Renk uses 'Ma' (Good) to mean 'yes', but it doesn't really mean that, it's 'good' as an interjection, like 'How are you? I'm better than I was. Good!'

Fair = Mortal, Adan = Man (the race of), as you put mortal I thought I'd give you the option, but I think when replying, he's much more likely to say 'I am a man' than 'I am mortal'.

Le = You are, formal (someone you don't know)
Ci = You are, informal (someone you know well)

If you're going to go with 'Le' I suggest using Mae l'ovannen instead of Mae g'ovannen, otherwise you're messing up your pronouns.

___________________________________
LESSON 2.2

C: Well met! (C is a dwarf) Mae g'ovannen!

A: Well met! I’m A! Are you a dwarf? (A is a human) Mae g'ovannen! Ni A! Le/Ci hadhod?

C: I’m C, a dwarf. Are you a human? Ni C, hadhod. Le/Ci adan?

A: Yes, I am a human. Ni adan.

C: Hmm... are you a human? Hmm... /A le/ci? Le/ci adan?

B: No, I am not a human. I am an elf. (B is male!) ú, ni ú adan. Ni edhel.
If you want to use 'uin', then ú, uin adan. Ni edhel.

The 'a le?' is a instead of using 'hmm', what about 'and you? are you...'

Hadhod = dwarf. Naug has the connotation of 'the stunted ones' and I really don't think that's what they would call themselves! There's also 'Anfang' = Longbeard, if they're of that 'clan'.
___________________________________

LESSON 3

B: Well met, A! Mae g'ovannen, A!

A: Well met, B! Who’s that? Mae g'ovannen, B! A man sa?

B: That’s C, a dwarf. Sa C, hadhod.

A: Oh. Who’s that? Ai. A ha?

B: That’s D, an elf-maiden. Sa D, elleth.

A: OK. And who’s that? A ha?

B: ORC! Orch!

'A man' is reconstructed (not to be confused with 'Amman' btw). Some people just prefer to use the straight 'Man' but that really looks to me as if you would be saying 'What is that?'...
___________________________________

LESSON 4

B: Well met! (male elf) Mae g'ovannen!

E: Well met! I’m B! Who are you? (female human) Mae g'ovannen! Ni B! A le/ci?

B: I’m B. Ni B.

E: Are you an elf? Le/Ci edhel?

B: Yes, I am. And you are a human. Ni edhel. A le/ci adan.

E: Haha, yes I am! Lala, ni adan.

B: Hmm.... he is a human... she is a human.. and they are humans. Te adan, te adan, a di edain.

E: Ah. And him? Ai. A den?

B: He’s an elf. De edhel.

E: And her? A den?

B: She’s an elf. And they are elves. De edhel. A di edhil.

E: I thank you, B!

Len/Gin hannon, B.

B: My pleasure, E. Glassen/i 'ell nîn, E.

E: Farewell! Novaer!

B: Farewell, E. Novaer, E!

Glassen = Joy+'my'ending, seen in Guren etc.
i 'ell nîn = my joy. Just two ways of saying it basically.

Te/Ten are not gender specific, inasmuch as they do not differentiate between 'he' 'she' and 'it', so I tend to assume you know who they're referring to. If you'd rather use the other lot of pronouns, they are...ho = he, he = she.

I realise most people say 'Le hannon' but Le = you are, and Len = you.