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Naruvir
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 14, 2012 12:53
I'm curious about the origins of ingí, especially since there are next to no nouns in Sindarin that ends with a vowel. Please do tell how you derived that word.

Concerning your tengwar in general mode, I have a few comments:

1) AE is transcribed correctly
2) When a word is ending with R, you tend to use óre instead of rómen.
3) UI is transcribed correctly

I'm afraid that I do not know the Beleriand mode well enough to assert anything, but you've got an excellent reference available to you at the Mellonath Daeron website:
http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/teng-sin.pdf
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Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 14, 2012 03:52
Was actually nagging at me yesterday about this, I have no idea why I didn't just shorten it to ing...one of those 'it made sense at the time, honestly'. Derivation is in a post on page 2.

Oh aye, I know, it was because there's an existing word 'inc' and for some reason my brain told me that that meant there was an existing 'ing' too.
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 15, 2012 04:22
So ought the word be ing instead?

Thanks, Naruvir. I had forgotten about the óre/rómen thing, but on Beleriand I'm pretty positive it's correct.

Thanks for all your help, both of you.

Also Galadivren, how is your Misty Mountains translation coming?
Naruvir
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 15, 2012 07:18
Concerning previous claims that RealElvish is the most recent compilation of Sindarin grammar, I think we have to step back and listen to Fiona herself, the author of RealElvish:
What I'm doing here is providing a summary of my theories and links to other's theories, whether or not they disagree with my own. In the world of Sindarin reconstruction, I'm quite young and new at the game, but I hope to be rejuvenating the field with plenty of new ideas and new eyes.


This is important to remember when criticizing other sources as outdated or deprecated. Fiona is doing a wonderful work communicating her own extrapolations and deductions yielded by years of research, and while it certainly is elvish, it is not what Tolkien would've conceived. It is an extrapolation based on notes and essays that he wrote throughout his lifetime.

So ought the word be ing instead?


Not being an expert on word reconstruction, A Rogue's Guide to Sindarin Reconstruction by Thorsten Renk (http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/rogue.html) is excellent in terms of pointing out the complexity involved. In fact, it's so complex that I prefer to rephrase my sentences rather than inventing new words. Looking at the Etymologies and the recent publications of Parma Eldalamberon we clearly see that the two languages have even chosen different roots for the same word in some cases, perhaps culturally motivated.

Yeah, I hate being a party-crasher but I thought that you might appreciate to be aware of this before you make anything permanent.
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Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 15, 2012 07:31
Did I say something to offend? I apologize if I did. I'm really new to this—since about April or May—so it feels like an exhausting game of catch-up.

May I ask, who is Fiona?

And not to be pushy, but what is your final assessment on ing for "imagination"? I'm anxious to submit this to my "client".

EDIT: Apparently you edited your post before I finished mine. I was using the Rogue guide, which initially led me to the reconstruction "inc"—obviously a problem when it is already a word. But I searched the root list on this page (http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/primelv.htm) and couldn't find anything that seemed to fit better than INK.

If I weren't trying to scrounge up money for college then I'd be all up on buying any and all relevant Parma Eldalamberon publications, but I can't currently justify spending the money.

If you can think of a way to rephrase the sentence without using reconstructed words, that would be great. I couldn't come up with any good synonyms for "creativity" that existed in Sindarin; the closest was "imagination" in Quenya. But again, major novice here.

At risk of exhausting this, thank you much to both Galadivren and Naruvir for your assistance with this. It is a major encouragement to know that there are such excellent resources to aid in learning what can be learned of this language.
Naruvir
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 15, 2012 07:39
EDIT: Apparently you edited your post before I finished mine.

Yes I do that a lot, sorry!


Did I say something to offend? I apologize if I did. I'm really new to this—since about April or May—so it feels like an exhausting game of catch-up.

Not at all! Just offering you a nuanced point of view.

Concerning ing, I do not know. I don't know word reconstruction well enough to gauge its validity based on the material that we have today. You see, these words have to go through multiple stages of phonetic changes, forcing you as a linguist more or less to enact the different clans and the development of their languages as they mingled as a people.

So you want a word for creativity. Well, someone asked Tolkien once how you'd say "Try harder" in Quenya. Whilst he did offer a translation, he made it clear that he was displeased with the lack of context: elves are very playful with their language depending on the situation. I'd try to look at the context and try to derive something from the vocabulary that we indeed have.
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Naruvir
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 15, 2012 07:51
At risk of exhausting this, thank you much to both Galadivren and Naruvir for your assistance with this. It is a major encouragement to know that there are such excellent resources to aid in learning what can be learned of this language.

Don't worry! We're both very passionate about this. I am one of those people that would be very happy to discuss something like this to excess, whereas Gal enjoys a more direct approach. Given the context, ing might be as good as any because only a diminishing audience might by chance raise an eyebrow in confusion.
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Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 15, 2012 08:20
Well I did work out an expression that *sort of* means "creativity"/"inspiration":

"source of new (fresh) thought" or "source of unique thought"

The former gives me the following possibilities, which I suppose I would settle on formally simply based on tastes (as would Tolkien, I'm sure).

celu nauth/ind/inn laew/gîw/'wain/hain
celu – spring, source
nauth – thought
ind/inn – inner thought, meaning, heart
laew/cîw – fresh
cîw/gwain/sain – new

…or…

celu nauth/ind/inn vinai
minai – unique

Do any of these alternatives seem acceptable to you? It would make the sentence slightly meatier, but otherwise the meaning seems mostly in tact.

So the final outcome (selecting a single example) would be along the lines of

I gelu rovaer inn vinai tôl uin gûr Eru.

With no word "of" to speak of, should I assume that this sentence would be easily understood by the Elves, particularly the first five words?
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 15, 2012 09:24
Quote from Smoore on July 16, 2012, 02:22
So ought the word be ing instead?

Thanks, Naruvir. I had forgotten about the óre/rómen thing, but on Beleriand I'm pretty positive it's correct.

Thanks for all your help, both of you.

Also Galadivren, how is your Misty Mountains translation coming?


Apart from doing a pass over it to check for stupidity, it's finished.
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 15, 2012 09:29
Haha let's see it. Also, would you mind reviewing my (hopefully) final form of the translation?

I ing rovaer tôl uin gûr Eru.
or
I gelu rovaer inn vinai tôl uin gûr Eru.

EDIT: Sorry for bugging so much about this, by the way. I'm just excited to see it finished.
Naruvir
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 16, 2012 11:24
Hmm, inn only receives that form as a trailing part of a compound; ind would be a better choice.

In fact, looking at the etymology behind creative we find:

create + -ive (a suffix of adjectives [and nouns of adjectival origin] expressing tendency, disposition, function, connection, etc.)

Thorsten Renk, Ryszard Derdzinski and RealElvish among many believe that -weg might resume the same function as -ive. So just looking at what we have, we might even construct a word for creative:

nautha- + -weg > *nauthweg or
car- + -weg > *carweg

So one might perhaps write:

Ammaer in-ind noethwig/gerwig tôl uin gûr Eru
The best creative minds come from Eru's heart

What do you think?
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Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 16, 2012 04:42
:O It's… completely different.

What is "ammaer"? I assume it's a compound with maer, but I don't know "am-". Would "car-" be "to do" (thus "carweg" = "do-ive")?

Then in ind would be "the minds", and telir would be "they come"?

Aye aye aye, this blows the mind…

EDIT: I don't see "telir" on Helge K. Fauskanger's Suggested Conjugation of All Known or Inferred Sindarin Verbs list. Here is what he has for tôl-:
tol- "come", inf. teli, pr.t. teli- (3 sg tôl), pa.t. telli- (3 sg toll), fut. telitha, imp. tolo, part. tolel (perfective túliel), pp. tollen (pl. tellin), ger. toled
Naruvir
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 16, 2012 05:33
What is "ammaer"?

It's an augmentative prefix an- combined with maer: an-maer > ammaer (beyond good; "best") This is a question of style, really. I personally find rau- (ro-) so aggressive sounding!

Would "car-" be "to do" (thus "carweg" = "do-ive")?

car- is has multiple meanings: making, doing, building etc. Context will determine which of the two I gave as preferential.

Then in ind would be "the minds"
Yes, it is important to remember that this is a different language with different word orders. A common mistake neo-translators do is that they try to make a translation word-for-word, rather than looking at the context. Ammaer in ind means "Best of thoughts" hence "best thoughts".

telir would be "they come"?

Now this is interesting. Initially I used the plural marker -r as I was referring to multiple thoughts, but having a second look at it, you're right that singular is probably more appropriate here.

I'll change telir to tôl, as ammaer in ind implies a superlative.

EDIT: I don't see "telir" on Helge K. Fauskanger's Suggested Conjugation of All Known or Inferred Sindarin Verbs list. Here is what he has for tôl-:
tol- "come", inf. teli, pr.t. teli- (3 sg tôl), pa.t. telli- (3 sg toll), fut. telitha, imp. tolo, part. tolel (perfective túliel), pp. tollen (pl. tellin), ger. toled

Yes, you do. Present tense (in this case the aorist tense) + the plural marker. The O > E is I-affection induced by the I that you insert between the verb stem and the plural marker.
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Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 16, 2012 05:59
I thought that the adjectives almost always followed the nouns, as in Spanish. I haven't finished the Adjectives lesson on CoE yet, though (I am just now working on it, inspired by this exercise).

As for telir, I had skimmed through The Sindarin Verb System, and I didn't see any verbs ending in -r. This is why I was confused. But my knowledge of Sindarin verb structures is pathetic at this point. I need to finish my lessons, but working on translations is much more mentally stimulating.

EDIT: I looked up an- on Hiswelókë's dictionary. The only definition I could find was "with, by", though under the explanation for iarwain, it does say that an- can be an intensifier. Confusing. :-S
Naruvir
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 17, 2012 10:10
I thought that the adjectives almost always followed the nouns, as in Spanish.
Yes, with the exception of poetry where the word order might of course vary! But in this case, I use a superlative as a means to determine the noun, rather than describing it: exceedingly good amongst things > "best thing".

The reason I used telir instead of tôl is that the intended outcome might vary depending on the reader's interpretation: is it the single best creativity or all superior creativities? Changing it to tôl ought to make the intended meaning plain enough..!

I haven't finished the Adjectives lesson on CoE yet, though (I am just now working on it, inspired by this exercise).
That's great! If you have any questions as you go along, please do not hesitate to ask!

As for telir, I had skimmed through The Sindarin Verb System, and I didn't see any verbs ending in -r.
It is true that the suffix -r translates as they, but you use it also in conjunction with multiple agents of the verb:

Edhel câr gardh.
An elf is building a house.

Edhil cerir gardh.
Elves are building a house.

EDIT: I looked up an- on Hiswelókë's dictionary. The only definition I could find was "with, by", though under the explanation for iarwain, it does say that an- can be an intensifier. Confusing. :-S
Actually, Thorsten Renk has published an article about this: Intensifying Prefixes in the Etymologies (http://www.elvish.org/Tengwestie/articles/Renk/noldintenspref.phtml)

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Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 17, 2012 04:47
You are an excellent source of wisdom. Thank you so much!

By the way, if you have gone through the CoE lessons, what did you do about lesson 10? I don't have access to the recommended book at this time, and it is seemingly unrelated from simply learning the grammar rules.

EDIT: I had a thought about your translation. I am more familiar with Spanish, and in Spanish the adjective can precede the noun as you had it in Sindarin for the same purpose of emphasis, but it does not precede the article. So with my Spanish background, I would assume the translation should read "In ammaer ind noethwig tôl uin gûr Eru." instead (or perhaps "i ammaer ind", if the subject is singular to match tôl). Would that not be the case? or is Sindarin different in that adjectives preceding the noun also precede the article?

¡Gracias!
Naruvir
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 18, 2012 12:31
While in might be confused for an article in this case, it's actually pluralization of en. Usually you'd put a dot between the preposition and the noun to clarify this.

If you have two adjectives, you might use and to connect them:

Bess vain ar lend
A sweet and beautiful woman

Some people believe that you can put the adjective on the front to really put emphasis on it, but in that case you'd mutate the noun afterwards:

Bain vess!
Beautiful woman!

I haven't made up my own mind about that, to be honest, but I hope that answers your questions.

Quote from Galadivren on July 16, 2012, 07:24
Apart from doing a pass over it to check for stupidity, it's finished.
Any chance you might publish it for us all to peruse?
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Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 18, 2012 02:10
Aye, why not, I'll put it in a separate thread.

Never seen someone put the adjective on the front for emphasis, wouldn't do it myself.
Naruvir
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 18, 2012 02:57
Quote from Galadivren on July 19, 2012, 00:10
Never seen someone put the adjective on the front for emphasis, wouldn't do it myself.


Oh, but there is! Have a look at A Elbereth Gilthoniel:

o galadhremmin ennorath
from the tree-woven lands of Middle-earth


Admittedly, it's used here to fit the metre of the poem, but on the other hand, Elbereth is our longest coherent Sindarin text (save Aragorn's letter) that we have.
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Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 18, 2012 04:34
Well, there's 'Ae adar nin' (scusey lack of accents) but aye, indeed, but I must concur that it's to fit the verse structure rather than anything else.
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 18, 2012 05:11
Ah, that makes more sense now. So then if in is the pluralized form of en, doesn't there still need to be an article? In English, it would be "the best of the thoughts", so shouldn't the Sindarin be "I ammaer in-ind noethwig…"?

And to your example of "bess vain ar lend", why is "and" spelled "ar"? I know it is a variation, but that is not very smooth on the tongue. I had in my mind the thought that "ar" was used when the following word began with a vowel, though I don't know if I've seen that anywhere or just made it up.

Galarivren, I want to find your song! I'm really excited to see it.
Galadivren
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 18, 2012 05:42
It's in the 'translate poems' thread - be gentle, lol, my ego is non-existent.
Cillendor
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 18, 2012 09:49
Considering you had almost the entire thing done before I was three lines through the version sung in the trailer for The Hobbit, I'd say I have nothing to say that could possibly be critical. I stare at it in wonder, mouth slightly agape, as I recognize my own insignificance in ability.

The only thing I would question is how to get the word "roaring" instead of "rushing", as it is in the movie version? Earlier you had "translated" Q. rávëa into S. "râf", but that isn't a correct verb form, is it? Would the infinitive be "rava"?
Galadivren
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on: July 19, 2012 12:24
Aye I did that as an adjective, can't just turn it into an a-stem verb!

The question is, are the pines roaring in the wind, or roaring because they're burning? (The joys of picking apart poetry, lol). Given that it then goes on to say that the trees blazed with light, I'd be tempted to go with the latter, which then renders my translation incorrect...meh.

Ideally, I did want a verb 'to roar', but that conjured up more thoughts of a lion literally roaring (plus I wasn't entirely sure of it's construction). I'll have another think...
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 19, 2012 04:20
I don't think it would affect your translation. If your English version of the actual poem is accurate, then there is a different word. I think it was changed for the movie's version of the song.
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on: July 20, 2012 04:35
Okay, I have a new translations question. I am trying to translate a poem (I won't say which one until I am done and want review), but I need a few words for it. I cannot find a Sindarin word for "before", or anything close to a synonym of it. I did find Q. nóvo ("previously", "before"). Could it be reconstructed into "nôf" or "nauf"?

Another one I'm wondering, is "neither" and "nor". I can't find an "either" in Sindarin, although in the context I can use û ("no", "not"). But I don't want to simply repeat that word over and over if I can help it. I'm wondering if it would make sense to create a word for "nor" out of al- and egor. My ideas are "alegor" or perhaps "algor". Or using ú-/u-, it could be "uigor" or "wegor". (At this point, I'm completely shooting in the dark. I'm sure I'm almost definitely wrong with these.)

ANOTHER question. I looked up "not", and I found the two forms above, û and al-. I want to say "not Doom" (I hope this doesn't give away the poem!). Would it be "û Amarth", or perhaps "Alamarth"?

And now, "unborn". I'm looking at "uonnen" and thinking it looks ugly.

Lastly (for now) I am looking for a verb for "remember" or "recall". I found Q. enyal-, and I'll probably try restructuring it tomorrow if I can't find another verb that works better. The absence of a verb "to think" is really annoying, because then I could use the prefix ad- as "re-". Oh well.

Goodnight!

Good morning!

Is there a Sindarin word for Maia, or should it just be a loan-word like Eru?

Might anyone know the root for Q. axan ("law")? I don't know how to derive it into Sindarin. :/

Since the imperative form of a verb seems to be the same as the infinitive, are suffixes added to them to make the particular command? I want to say "you listen". Would I say "lastol", or just "lasto"?
Naruvir
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on: July 22, 2012 08:04
Sorry, I'm on the run so I'll have to make this brief!

I can't comment on the invention of new words by phonological development from Quenya and/or proto-Eldarin, except that I recommend that you try to rephrase sentences instead.

Concerning un-, please have a look at al- and pen-.

A common neologism for remember is *ren-. It's coined by David Salo for the movies, and comfortable within the Sindarin phonology.

Translation of law, depends on context. Perhaps you could use dâf? Have a look at Balan for Maia.
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Galadivren
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on: July 22, 2012 08:43
It's a tad clumsy, but I use Ú-ab for before (literally 'not after', and yes I know it's a prefix, hence the clumsy comment).

I'd be tempted to re-word the sentence rather than make up a word for 'neither, nor', depending what it is obviously...but it could be something like 'it was not this, or that'.

If you say 'Lasto!' then it's 'Listen!', it's not the same as saying 'you listen'. If the sentence is 'you listen' then I'd use lastol/og (assuming it's singular anyway).
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on: July 22, 2012 09:44
Quote from Naruvir on July 23, 2012, 06:04
Translation of law, depends on context. Perhaps you could use dâf? Have a look at Balan for Maia.


Thanks. I might be able to use dâf there. As for Maia, the poem already has the word Balan in it in regards to the Valar. I may need to rephrase some things.

Quote from Galadivren on July 23, 2012, 06:43
It's a tad clumsy, but I use Ú-ab for before (literally 'not after', and yes I know it's a prefix, hence the clumsy comment).


That could work. It's better than anything I've thought of.


I'd be tempted to re-word the sentence rather than make up a word for 'neither, nor', depending what it is obviously...but it could be something like 'it was not this, or that'.


That could completely break the flow of the poem, as it is a list of "Neither …, nor …, nor …, nor." I think I am sticking with "alegor" because I found a Quenya translation of the poem, and the author coined his own convergent word to say the same thing. I know Elvish isn't supposed to be a reworded form of English, but in English "neither" and "nor" are literally "not either" and "not or". I could replace it with "or" (there is no Sindarin word for "either" that I'm aware of), but it seems just as practical to mimic the Quenya construction the other author made.


If you say 'Lasto!' then it's 'Listen!', it's not the same as saying 'you listen'. If the sentence is 'you listen' then I'd use lastol/og (assuming it's singular anyway).


It is saying "you listen". I just wanted to know if that was an appropriate way to form the verb, since I couldn't find anywhere on CoE or elsewhere that supported it.

I will likely have a few more questions before posting the translation. I'm working on mutations and word order now, and then hopefully it'll be finished.

EDIT:

Oh! I just thought of a question. In the case of noun + adjective pairs, do they always lead to soft mutations? For example, if a noun ends in an /n/ or /m/, could it instead produce a nasal mutation or something else?

Also, I just read here that imperative verbs do not receive endings at all. I suppose the only instances of using imperatives would be for thou/you anyway, so endings aren't necessary.
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 23, 2012 12:00
Adjectives always undergo soft mutation when they follow...anything, unless it's another adjective (i.e. i Edhel dûg brûn, first mutates, second doesn't.)
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: July 23, 2012 12:41
Okay, thanks! (That's an interesting phrase, by the way.)

And to Naruvir (or I guess either of you), instead of using ú-ab for "before", could alab be used instead, since al- seems to mean the same as ú- as a prefix?

EDIT: Actually never mind. I found "núf" on this site as a reconstruction for "before". It is likely reconstructed from the Quenya word nóvo "previously, before".
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: August 12, 2012 05:25
I have been trying to translate this lyric, "Lights will guide you home" (by coldplay) for a year now for a future tattoo, but I keep getting confused on how to translate it correctly. I have...
Light= galad
will= thel (don't know if it is correct)
guide = no word, i used lead instead to get- tog
you= ?
home= bar

can anyone confirm these words? and how do I put them together so they would make sense gramatically in sindarin?
thanks!

(oh! also, are there any really good fonts that I could download to get the text looking the best it can?)
Morglin
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: August 25, 2012 06:18
Forgive me for being a dunce, but is there actually a specific 'Sindarin forum' or is it just the ones within the Sindarin Discussion forum?

Anyway, my real points are:
1) What is the soft mutation of the plural of 'mellon'. My brain tells me make it plural, yes, that's 'mellyn', then apply soft mutation rule for 'm', which is 'v' - 'vellyn'. My dictionary (Dragon Flame Hiswelókë's Sindarin Dictionary) tells me it is 'mhellyn'. Who is correct? This is really bugging me.
2) In the Sindarin workbook, the link to the 'Elvish 101 Thread' in the exercises takes me to the forum hompage only. Am I mad, stupid, or is this meant to happen?
3) My elvish is not fantastic - I'm still learning. However, there is a small, I repeat, very smallchance I could be asked to teach Sindarin at school. This could result in me needing to submit several entries to each exercise close together because although I am perfectly capable of marking their work, I'd appreciate some help from the pros, as they say.

Finally, I apologise if I've put these questions on the wrong place, but I'm rather confused about where to ask and no-where else seems appropriate either.
(And I suppose one of the questions is sort of translation-based anyway)
Help would be appreciated! ^^
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: August 26, 2012 12:39
This is the Sindarin forum.

1) Starting backward, /mh/ is an archaic way of writing /v/. At some point they may have had different sounds, but by the time of LOTR, they had the same sound. If you want to pronounce them differently, try making a "vee" sound with both lips instead of your bottom lip and your upper teeth. It's pretty difficult, honestly.

As for the plural mutation, this depends on whether you are saying "friends"/"some friends" or "the friends". For the former ("friends"/"some friends"), it would be vellyn. For the latter ("the friends"), it would be in mellyn (unmutated) > i mellyn (mutated). This is called a nasal mutation, and it has different rules than lenition/soft mutation. This chart is very handy in doing mutations.

2) The workbook was written several years ago. It is good, but it is missing some things and isn't the most up-to-date. A lot of the links it cites have changed or disappeared. The most up-to-date workbook I've seen is http://your-sindarin-textbook.realelvish.net/.

3) I am not a pro, so I'll hand this one over to someone else.

You can always create a new thread if there isn't one that suits your needs. That would actually be best if you are going to be posting a lot about your teaching thing at school. (That is really awesome, by the way.)
Naruvir
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Post Re: Translations Thread
on: August 26, 2012 10:35
You would be more than welcome to contact me about the course for guidance!
ElfDict.com - an extensive dictionary dedicated to the languages of Middle Earth!
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